Turn Off Ads?
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 95

Thread: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

  1. #76
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    One thing that should be remembered about that Wily Mo trade is that the BoSox thought they were trading a middle reliever/back end guy for Pena....
    That's the thing, you need to figure who's undervalued. Instead of getting an undervalued starter for one of Kearns or Lopez, the Reds overvalued two relievers for both of them. It's, like, doing the opposite of what was needed.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #77
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Guelph, ON
    Posts
    16,027

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    In fact, the offense didn't take the hit everyone says as we played some pretty decent ball immediately after the trade
    Blame who you will, but the Reds had a team OPS of .793 before The Trade and .737 afterwards. Is that all due to the loss of Lopez and Kearns? Of course not. Dunn had a .777 OPS, Jr. .764, Hatteberg .721, Phillips .702, and Freel .690 after the break. But
    all of those guys might have hit a bit better with some more protection in the lineup and relevant bats around them.

    Clayton sucked out loud and Hollandsworth was predictably bleh. Kearns had an .810 OPS in Washington. Lopez's power vanished in 2006, but his OBP was solid and his speed was top notch. He posted a .362 OBP and 21/27 SB in Washington.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-08-2007 at 05:18 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #78
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    "I'm not arguing whether we got all we should in return for the trade, mearly pointing out that I don't think if we had them now that we'd be able to get much more in return."

    To me that's an excuse. Juan Pierre's worth a king's ransom and Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez wouldn't be able to fetch more than two middle relievers in trade? I'm not buying that.

    I know what the Reds needed to get. I know they didn't get it. I know that, as a result, they still need to figure out a way to get it.
    I'm not suggesting that because the potential trade value of both of those players may be low now that it somehow means it's ok to get less than their market value in the past. I'm only talking about their potential trade value in the present market.

    I don't know how many ways to say/type it. I'm not talking about the trade, what we got in return, Waynes reasoning for it or why Jimbo gives me the willies or anything else to do with or related to the trade.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  5. #79
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    I'm not suggesting that because the potential trade value of both of those players may be low now that it somehow means it's ok to get less than their market value in the past. I'm only talking about their potential trade value in the present market.

    I don't know how many ways to say/type it. I'm not talking about the trade, what we got in return, Waynes reasoning for it or why Jimbo gives me the willies or anything else to do with or related to the trade.
    No, you're just creating a false construct that the team couldn't do better now. I say they could and I say they need to with the guys they've still got on the roster.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  6. #80
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    No, you're just creating a false construct that the team couldn't do better now. I say they could and I say they need to with the guys they've still got on the roster.
    You honestly think that right now Felipe Lopez would return an established quality #3 pitcher all by himself? Not a "could possibly might be" but an established one? I just don't see it.

    And Kearns? He might be a better shot at pulling one in all by himself but I still find it unlikely.

    BTW - here's is part of responce #61. "I don't have a problem with trying to get an under-the-radar pitcher, in fact I think that's the route they should take (or have taken).". So we are both in agreement that they should be scouring the earth for any reasonable starting pitching deal.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 01-08-2007 at 02:44 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  7. #81
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    You honestly think that right now Felipe Lopez would return an established quality #3 pitcher all by himself? Not a "could possibly might be" but an established one? I just don't see it.

    And Kearns? He might be a better shot at pulling one in all by himself but I still find it unlikely.
    I think either one could pull an undervalued starting pitcher. Established #3 starter? As jojo noted, Arroyo certainly wasn't an established #3 guy when the Reds got him.

    This "established" thing you've got going is your own invention, not mine. I'd be fine with landing someone unestablished. I'm even all right with gambling one of Kearns or Lopez on Bray's potential upside (though he doesn't strike me as closer material, not enough fastball). Again, it's gets back to overvaluing two relievers when the goal should have been finding an undervalued starter.

    The Reds still need to find an undervalued starter. That wraps me all the way back to the theme of this thread. Until Krivsky lands a potentially undervalued starter or two, I'm not sure you can call what he's doing a working plan.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  8. #82
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Or at least Felo could possibly have been dealt to a team that seems to have a surplus of under-appreciated arms(like the Cubs). Heck I would Guzman, Ryu, Marmol, etc. (or Wuertz of course).
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  9. #83
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I think either one could pull an undervalued starting pitcher. Established #3 starter? As jojo noted, Arroyo certainly wasn't an established #3 guy when the Reds got him.

    This "established" thing you've got going is your own invention, not mine. I'd be fine with landing someone unestablished. I'm even all right with gambling one of Kearns or Lopez on Bray's potential upside (though he doesn't strike me as closer material, not enough fastball). Again, it's gets back to overvaluing two relievers when the goal should have been finding an undervalued starter.

    The Reds still need to find an undervalued starter. That wraps me all the way back to the theme of this thread. Until Krivsky lands a potentially undervalued starter or two, I'm not sure you can call what he's doing a working plan.
    I agree totally that the Reds need to find starting pitching, established, unestablished, under-valued, unappreicated or unkempt.

    I guess I'm just suprised that you didn't like the return of the trade, but you'd be willing now, if given the opportunity, to trade one of them for essentially what amounts to a prospect.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  10. #84
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    I agree totally that the Reds need to find starting pitching, established, unestablished, under-valued, unappreicated or unkempt.

    I guess I'm just suprised that you didn't like the return of the trade, but you'd be willing now, if given the opportunity, to trade one of them for essentially what amounts to a prospect.
    I don't see what's so surprising about wanting to trade for another Harang or Arroyo.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  11. #85
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I don't see what's so surprising about wanting to trade for another Harang or Arroyo.
    That's what we all want. But since we'd mostly likely have to target a pitcher who is "underappreciated" or "unestablished" or whatever label you want to use, that means we're basically rolling the dice on a glorified prospect.

    I'd submit that with the wild FA action teams are going to want to hold onto any starting pitcher with a heartbeat for use as tradebait later on, or actual use on the playing field. Thus, any established (which is why I kept bringing that up) pitcher who could step in and make a difference would likely not be let go for AK or FL by themselves.

    I can't wrap my head around why the return for the trade was considered abymsimal but trading them now for prospects would be acceptable.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 01-08-2007 at 03:52 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  12. #86
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    That's what we all want. But since we'd mostly likely have to target a pitcher who is "underappreciated" or "unestablished" or whatever label you want to use, that means we're basically rolling the dice on a glorified prospect.

    I'd submit that with the wild FA action teams are going to want to hold onto any starting pitcher with a heartbeat for use as tradebait later on, or actual use on the playing field. Thus, any established (which is why I kept bringing that up) pitcher who could step in and make a difference would likely not be let go for AK or FL by themselves.

    I can't wrap my head around why the return for the trade was abymsimal but trading them now for prospects would be acceptable.
    I can't wrap my head around not being able to differentiate between an undervalued starter and overpaying for two relievers, one with an exceptionally low ceiling.

    You're acting like we're talking about apples to apples here. That Majewski some equals a starting pitcher with unrealized upside. He doesn't. He's not anywhere close.

    As for the other stuff, that's just a pile of rationalization. Given the wild FA action, teams are also going to want to hold onto comparitively cheap, productive bats. Other teams aren't putting players like Kearns and Lopez onto the market, the Nats certainly aren't. If the Reds were still in possession of those two, they'd be one of the few teams willing to move that kind of talent. Do I think a somewhat proven bat could fetch an undervalued (and that word doesn't mean "hot prospect," it means "guy who's better than his current organization realizes") pitcher? Yep.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  13. #87
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    As for the other stuff, that's just a pile of rationalization. Given the wild FA action, teams are also going to want to hold onto comparitively cheap, productive bats. Other teams aren't putting players like Kearns and Lopez onto the market, the Nats certainly aren't. If the Reds were still in possession of those two, they'd be one of the few teams willing to move that kind of talent. Do I think a somewhat proven bat could fetch an undervalued (and that word doesn't mean "hot prospect," it means "guy who's better than his current organization realizes") pitcher? Yep.
    Yet the Jays have been dangling Alex Rios, who has .302BA, .349OBP and .865 OPS line from last year, in an attempt to swing a trade for starting pitching and have come up with bubkis. "So far any attempts at upgrading the rotation by dangling assets such as right fielder Alex Rios have been a bust. Simply put, teams aren't willing to give up a quality starter at any cost. " Source

    I'd certinally call his line from last year a "somewhat proven bat" wouldn't you?

    Certinally this one story doesn't define all the avilable trades that could be out there. But it's evidence of where the market may be right now. This is a young, inexpensive and tallented kid and he brought back nothing in return. It's an indicator.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 01-08-2007 at 04:23 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  14. #88
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,163

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Yet the Jays have been dangling Alex Rios, who has .302BA, .349OBP and .865 OPS line from last year, in an attempt to swing a trade for starting pitching and have come up with bubkis. "So far any attempts at upgrading the rotation by dangling assets such as right fielder Alex Rios have been a bust. Simply put, teams aren't willing to give up a quality starter at any cost. " Source

    I'd certinally call his line from last year a "somewhat proven bat" wouldn't you?
    And from that article it sounds like Ricciardi's also looking for a proven starter, which is a completley different animal than what I've been talking about (all I can do is keep typing the words "undervalued starting pitcher"). Are you done with the bait switch or do we have to keep plowing over this?
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  15. #89
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    And from that article it sounds like Ricciardi's also looking for a proven starter, which is a completley different animal than what I've been talking about (all I can do is keep typing the words "undervalued starting pitcher"). Are you done with the bait switch or do we have to keep plowing over this?

    Well, the article actually says "quality" starting pitching, not "proven starter" so no bait and switch has taken place. You can read into the article whatever you wish.

    Oh well we can argue over the "what if" potential of AK and FL all day long. What is really important is what the Reds are able to do in the here and now. I think the chances of finding this "undervalued" (who wasn't so good that the price was too high but just good enough that he'd be able to walk in and make a difference) pitcher, and we are able to pull off a trade are slim to none in this market, but hopefully Wayne will prove me wrong.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 01-08-2007 at 05:16 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  16. #90
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Mason, OH
    Posts
    12,172

    Re: Wayne Krivsky's "Plan"

    We want a pitcher, not a belly itcher.

    Pay attention to the open sky


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25