Open letter to parents

[Ltlabner]

They don't seek conformity and ostracize anyone who doesn't maintain lockstep with the herd.

Maybe I am not understanding your post but I don't see what expecting parents to be parents and not let the kids rule the roost has anything with conformtiy and imposing "herdism".

I was going to ask you about this.

Yea, I see if quite a bit. It's probably because I travel regularly for work so I eat out regularly. I don't think I'm asking too much to keep your kids from distrubing other partrons of the resturant even if it's a McD's. If someone sits next to the play area, yea they shouldn't gripe about the noise. But if I sit at the farthest point away from the play area and your kid comes over and bugs me thats totally different. I paid for my food too, why shouldn't I be able to enjoy it without kids running around, throwing things, trying to introduce themselves to me, making lots of noise, etc?

I was in a Taco Bell yesterday. I don't expect fine dining there at all. Yet this one little girl was talking very loudly (borderline yelling) and the mom just kept talking to her like it was normal. Then she decided the booth was a playpen and started climing all over it. I guess some people just think I'm a Nazi but I guess I have standards and expectations that I'd like my children to aspire to. Not disrupting the lunch of everyone else in the resturant is one of those.

I'm not saying don't talk, I'm saying talk at the appropriate volume level. I'm not saying don't play, I'm saying play in the appropriate locations. I'm not saying don't do anything at all, I'm saying as a parent you owe it to your kid to help them learn the appropriate behavior for the appropriate setting. And if your kid can't handle it (for whatever reason, maybe a medical condition) don't put your kids in a situation where they will fail and drive all the other patrons bonkers.

"Lady, give him a break. You don't want to ruin his personality." .

I'm not talking about crushing their spirit, expecting them to never make a peep, and locking them up in shackles, etc. But a resturant, train station, library, place of business is not the appropriate place for them to explore their personality and express their creative being to the detriment of other patrons.

Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing. All I'm saying is that some parents to a poor job of actually allowing their kids to play in the right environments (over protective, don't allow contact, avoid competition) but then let their kids play in totally wrong environments.

[Ltlabner]

You don't see a lot of kids named Hortense or Zebulon any more. Are we sad about that, too?
There should just be a rule- don't name your kid something they have to keep spelling. I have that and it sucks. "Is that with a "ph" or a "v"? Over and over and over.
Until I die.
Or change to my middle name....which I am sure will piss someone off here, too.

Actaully, I've considered going with my middle name only because I don't care for my first.

My only issue with the "trendy" names is that some parents make the kids name about them and not the kid. Who can come up with the cleverist name. They shackel the kid with a rediculas name that they will be stuck with forever. Or they give them a trendy name to fit in with the friends.

Like most of my gripes in the orginal post it's not so much the name they gave the kid, it's the motivation behind it/ or the after effect of the behavior that bugs me.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Maybe I am not understanding your post but I don't see what expecting parents to be parents and not let the kids rule the roost has anything with conformtiy and imposing "herdism".




Yea, I see if quite a bit. It's probably because I travel regularly for work so I eat out regularly. I don't think I'm asking too much to keep your kids from distrubing other partrons of the resturant even if it's a McD's. If someone sits next to the play area, yea they shouldn't gripe about the noise. But if I sit at the farthest point away from the play area and your kid comes over and bugs me thats totally different. I paid for my food too, why shouldn't I be able to enjoy it without kids running around, throwing things, trying to introduce themselves to me, making lots of noise, etc?

I was in a Taco Bell yesterday. I don't expect fine dining there at all. Yet this one little girl was talking very loudly (borderline yelling) and the mom just kept talking to her like it was normal. Then she decided the booth was a playpen and started climing all over it. I guess some people just think I'm a Nazi but I guess I have standards and expectations that I'd like my children to aspire to. Not disrupting the lunch of everyone else in the resturant is one of those.

I'm not saying don't talk, I'm saying talk at the appropriate volume level. I'm not saying don't play, I'm saying play in the appropriate locations. I'm not saying don't do anything at all, I'm saying as a parent you owe it to your kid to help them learn the appropriate behavior for the appropriate setting. And if your kid can't handle it (for whatever reason, maybe a medical condition) don't put your kids in a situation where they will fail and drive all the other patrons bonkers.



I'm not talking about crushing their spirit, expecting them to never make a peep, and locking them up in shackles, etc. But a resturant, train station, library, place of business is not the appropriate place for them to explore their personality and express their creative being to the detriment of other patrons.

Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing. All I'm saying is that some parents to a poor job of actually allowing their kids to play in the right environments (over protective, don't allow contact, avoid competition) but then let their kids play in totally wrong environments.

Excellent post!

[Hoosier Red]

most palm pilots have a doodle pad. We used that to keep my 5 year old niece entertained one night at a nice restaurant.

[Red Leader]

Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing. All I'm saying is that some parents to a poor job of actually allowing their kids to play in the right environments (over protective, don't allow contact, avoid competition) but then let their kids play in totally wrong environments.

I have two younger children (soon to be 8, and 3). Both are good kids. My youngest will act out in public occasionally, but not very often. My oldest is almost perfectly behaved in public. I expect our youngest son will get there soon, he just has a LOT of energy at this age, so he requires a lot of playtime to get all of his energy out.

Anway, I think a problem I see is that parents don't let their kids have "free play" time in the appropriate places or at the appropriate times. In this day and age with both parents working all day (and the kids in schools, day cares, wherever all day), most parents are generally tired when they pick their kids up. The kids have just spent all day either bottled up at school (if they are school aged) or playing all day (if at daycare). This is the time parents pick to go to restaraunts. The kids are excited to see their parents for the first time since early morning, when most of them weren't even fully awake. The parents expect the kids to sit in the restaraunt and behave. Sit still, stay quiet, etc, etc so the parents can talk about their days and what they have going on. Not good. Kids can't do that. You are basically asking them to switch gears they can't. They've got one gear, full go. Then, because the parents are tired and want to talk to their spouse, they snap at kids that aren't "behaving."

We avoid all of this mess in our house. If we're running late from work and are too tired to cook a meal at home, we get take out during the week. No eating in restaraunts during the week. That way, if the kids act out, they are at home and not bothering anyone. If they act out at the dinner table, we correct them and tell them that isn't play time. Dinner usually doesn't take that long to eat and they are back to playing, getting attention, etc within 15 minutes of being home. We reserve eating at restaraunts for the weekends, if we do at all. That way we can make sure they get the proper play time BEFORE we go out to eat and they know that they are expected to behave in public. They know the restaraunt isn't play time.

This is our way of "not setting them up for failure." Based on a lot of families I see when I pick up food for carry-out, other families should try this method.

[Ltlabner]

We avoid all of this mess in our house. If we're running late from work and are too tired to cook a meal at home, we get take out during the week. No eating in restaraunts during the week.

This is our way of "not setting them up for failure." Based on a lot of families I see when I pick up food for carry-out, other families should try this method.

[M2]

Maybe I am not understanding your post but I don't see what expecting parents to be parents and not let the kids rule the roost has anything with conformtiy and imposing "herdism".

I think everyone can agree that kids need to exercise the manners appropriate to the setting they're in. Usually it's best to go over those manners before you enter a different setting, so they're clear on what's expected of them. I think the mistake parents sometimes make is assuming a kid is going to know the rules of comportment in a given situation by rote. -- "Don't they see how I'm behaving and why can't they just mimic that?" No, they don't and they aren't you (and by "you" I mean parents who assume their children automatically model the parents' every behavior).

Anyway, I was chiming in on what SunDeck was saying about how cookie cutter parenting doesn't work. The upside is that we don't seem to be raising wannabe cookie cutter kids these days. I think they understand the notion of different strokes better than we do.

Yea, I see if quite a bit. It's probably because I travel regularly for work so I eat out regularly.

I see it very rarely.

I'm not saying don't talk, I'm saying talk at the appropriate volume level. I'm not saying don't play, I'm saying play in the appropriate locations. I'm not saying don't do anything at all, I'm saying as a parent you owe it to your kid to help them learn the appropriate behavior for the appropriate setting. And if your kid can't handle it (for whatever reason, maybe a medical condition) don't put your kids in a situation where they will fail and drive all the other patrons bonkers.

While I agree with that, you also have to have some give on the other side of that spectrum. Last year we went out to restaurant with the kids where my son sat in a booth that shared a backing with the next booth over. He wasn't making noise. He wasn't jumping around. He was, in fact, sitting and eating his food. Occasionally he'd shift his body position. This last act managed to infuriate the woman in the next booth everytime he did it and she'd shoot a dirty look our way. Granted, it was a booth seat that tended to rock when someone moved, but that was going to happen no matter who sat there. We even successfully got him not to swing his feet though they were dangling (which is pretty much a miracle of parenting as it's a basic reaction to swing your feet when they dangle). Even with that, every few minutes, he'd inevitably move and we'd get another dirty look. Nothing you can do in that situation. You've just wound up next to someone looking for an excuse to get haughty.

Watching kids play, truely play, with wild abandon and enjoying themselves at whatever interests them is a beautiful thing.

I agree with that one. My wife, IMO, tends to rein them in too much. She's worried about them. I get that. But I've found they struggle with a lot of physical things that I could do at their age without trouble and I'm convinced it's because they're over-supervised. My kids can't even conceive of climbing to the top of the backstop and seeing who can dangle from the overhang the longest. I was talking to our elementary school gym teacher last week and he was saying that all of the physical testing standards they established 30 years ago need to be updated because modern kids aren't able to meet the requirements.

I also think the over-supervision costs them in the "keep yourself amused" department. I'm assuming most of us, during our youngers days, didn't need a lot of guidance when it came to having fun in a tree-lined field with a group of kids. I've noticed my kids and their friends seem to be waited for something structured to come along in that situation.

[vaticanplum]

I have two younger children (soon to be 8, and 3). Both are good kids. My youngest will act out in public occasionally, but not very often. My oldest is almost perfectly behaved in public. I expect our youngest son will get there soon, he just has a LOT of energy at this age, so he requires a lot of playtime to get all of his energy out.

Anway, I think a problem I see is that parents don't let their kids have "free play" time in the appropriate places or at the appropriate times. In this day and age with both parents working all day (and the kids in schools, day cares, wherever all day), most parents are generally tired when they pick their kids up. The kids have just spent all day either bottled up at school (if they are school aged) or playing all day (if at daycare). This is the time parents pick to go to restaraunts. The kids are excited to see their parents for the first time since early morning, when most of them weren't even fully awake. The parents expect the kids to sit in the restaraunt and behave. Sit still, stay quiet, etc, etc so the parents can talk about their days and what they have going on. Not good. Kids can't do that. You are basically asking them to switch gears they can't. They've got one gear, full go. Then, because the parents are tired and want to talk to their spouse, they snap at kids that aren't "behaving."

I just had a light bulb go on. I've worked at restaurants in the city and in the suburbs, and the kids at the former were notably better behaved. Apples and oranges, actually; my experience in the suburbs was Ltlabner's (kids acting up being almost the norm), and my experience in the city was M2's (kids acting up being a very rare occurrence -- in fact I can remember exactly one incident in many years, from a very young child).

I always wondered why this was, and I had social theories about it...but maybe it is just the excitability factor. Maybe city kids are just so used to crowds that it doesn't faze them. In a sense, they're ALWAYS out in public -- walking on crowded sidewalks, taking public transportation to school, rather than being in essentially the same worlds every day (home, car, school).

Anyway. Just occurred to me.

[M2]

I just had a light bulb go on. I've worked at restaurants in the city and in the suburbs, and the kids at the former were notably better behaved. Apples and oranges, actually; my experience in the suburbs was Ltlabner's (kids acting up being almost the norm), and my experience in the city was M2's (kids acting up being a very rare occurrence -- in fact I can remember exactly one incident in many years, from a very young child).

I always wondered why this was, and I had social theories about it...but maybe it is just the excitability factor. Maybe city kids are just so used to crowds that it doesn't faze them. In a sense, they're ALWAYS out in public -- walking on crowded sidewalks, taking public transportation to school, rather than being in essentially the same worlds every day (home, car, school).

Anyway. Just occurred to me.

That's a real interesting theory. You can throw a rock from my front door and have it hit public transportation. Pretty much everywhere I go is in the city and my kids have been city born and bred.

[Red Leader]

I just had a light bulb go on. I've worked at restaurants in the city and in the suburbs, and the kids at the former were notably better behaved. Apples and oranges, actually; my experience in the suburbs was Ltlabner's (kids acting up being almost the norm), and my experience in the city was M2's (kids acting up being a very rare occurrence -- in fact I can remember exactly one incident in many years, from a very young child).

I always wondered why this was, and I had social theories about it...but maybe it is just the excitability factor. Maybe city kids are just so used to crowds that it doesn't faze them. In a sense, they're ALWAYS out in public -- walking on crowded sidewalks, taking public transportation to school, rather than being in essentially the same worlds every day (home, car, school).

Anyway. Just occurred to me.

You're probably dead on.

My kids are suburban kids. They sleep at home, they wake up, we drive them to school or daycare, one of us picks them up, we go home, we talk / play until 8pm and then they get ready for bed. Rinse and repeat. They aren't exposed to very many public places throughout the week, other than school and daycare. As a result, I shouldn't expect them to know exactly how to behave in a public place like a restaraunt when we go. It's not a very common thing for us to go out to eat. Sure, they get some exposure to the public in malls, sporting events, grocery store, etc, but it's really not the same setting. They can move around in those settings. Asking them to sit still at the end of a day on a weekday is just an insane idea. I feel bad for even trying to do it with our oldest before slapping myself in the forehead and thinking "DUH, this doesn't work," before switching to our current setup.

[TeamMorris]

Just to let you know...I am really enjoying this thread! I disagree with some stuff but at the same time agree with many. I am learning a thing or two and looking at situations in ways I have not before. Thanks

We were all brought up different and will always agree to disagree but that doesn't make the way we raise our kids bad. I am a single mom of a 6 year old and have been very lucky and thankful to have had a lot of help from family and friends over the years. I have always been one very open to advice and take it or leave it. No matter what, in the long run I know how my child behaves and acts is reflected 100% on me and MY parenting skills. As they say, "you are his mother...not so and so".

Being a mom really has not been an easy ride for me and is still a work in progress. I know parenting is not easy for anyone but some are more of a natural than others. Sometimes I have to remind myself and others that he is only 6! He will act up and well...act like a 6 year old! He is a little boy with so much more to learn and everyday is an adventure. My biggest thing is being patient and am working very hard at that. At the same time doing my best to be firm and let him know what I expect out of him and what is right and wrong. I don't want to be one of those parents that people are rolling their eye's at because of the way your child acts in public. Unfortunately it happens to all but unless they know you, your child or situation it is very unfair to point fingers or judge. To make matters worse...I am ashamed to admit this but I use to be one of those people until I had my little guy! Parenting is NOT easy and it took me having a child of my own to really understand.

I want my son to grow up to be a kind, successful, loving and good man. Getting him there will be a lot of hard work but the most important and rewarding job with no pay, Holidays or weekends off that I will ever have and vow to never forget and look very much forward to!

So far at the young age of 6 my son has proven himself at school and home to be a very kind and caring young man when it comes to others. Makes me feel real good knowing I am off to a good start! I, like him still have so much to learn and except that will open arms!

[vaticanplum]

I'm enjoying this thread too. People who breed fascinate me.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Just to let you know...I am really enjoying this thread! I disagree with some stuff but at the same time agree with many. I am learning a thing or two and looking at situations in ways I have not before. Thanks

We were all brought up different and will always agree to disagree but that doesn't make the way we raise our kids bad. I am a single mom of a 6 year old and have been very lucky and thankful to have had a lot of help from family and friends over the years. I have always been one very open to advice and take it or leave it. No matter what, in the long run I know how my child behaves and acts is reflected 100% on me and MY parenting skills. As they say, "you are his mother...not so and so".

Being a mom really has not been an easy ride for me and is still a work in progress. I know parenting is not easy for anyone but some are more of a natural than others. Sometimes I have to remind myself and others that he is only 6! He will act up and well...act like a 6 year old! He is a little boy with so much more to learn and everyday is an adventure. My biggest thing is being patient and am working very hard at that. At the same time doing my best to be firm and let him know what I expect out of him and what is right and wrong. I don't want to be one of those parents that people are rolling their eye's at because of the way your child acts in public. Unfortunately it happens to all but unless they know you, your child or situation it is very unfair to point fingers or judge. To make matters worse...I am ashamed to admit this but I use to be one of those people until I had my little guy! Parenting is NOT easy and it took me having a child of my own to really understand.

I want my son to grow up to be a kind, successful, loving and good man. Getting him there will be a lot of hard work but the most important and rewarding job with no pay, Holidays or weekends off that I will ever have and vow to never forget and look very much forward to!

So far at the young age of 6 my son has proven himself at school and home to be a very kind and caring young man when it comes to others. Makes me feel real good knowing I am off to a good start! I, like him still have so much to learn and except that will open arms!

You're gonna do just fine!

[TeamCasey]

My other pet peeve, if it comes to the point where you have to discipline your child, please wait until you get home. There is nothing more uncomfortable that watching some harried parent go off on their kid in the middle of the grocery store.

One time I heaved a certain little boy over my shoulder and out of a store like a sack of potatoes. Then I let him sit on the grass out front and have his tantrum before leaving. After that, I made him recite Aunt TC's rules to me before entering any store. I did it repetitively. He's been good ever since, but he has the understanding that I won't take him if he ever behaves like that again. I think we only went through 2 of those episodes.

Part of it is learning each kid's "currency", part of it is the right discipline at the right age, part of it is an absolute quandry to me.

And then there's day I have unbelievable patience and some I don't. That's when I feel bad for single parents.

[TeamCasey]

I'm enjoying this thread too. People who breed fascinate me.