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Thread: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    I was looking at the list of players being considered by the Veterans Committee, including several with Reds connections (sorry, I couldn't get it to format right). Pinson had the most significant time, but Flood started with us, Mays had several good seasons in the 20's and Newcombe had a few years with us towards its end. Voting results will be announced February 27th.

    Players Ballot

    Code:
    Dick Allen Mickey Lolich Tony Oliva 
    Bobby Bonds Sparky Lyle Al Oliver 
    Ken Boyer Marty Marion Vada Pinson 
    Rocky Colavito Roger Maris Ron Santo 
    Wes Ferrell Carl Mays Luis Tiant 
    Curt Flood Minnie Minoso Joe Torre 
    Joe Gordon Thurman Munson Cecil Travis 
    Gil Hodges Don Newcombe Mickey Vernon 
    Jim Kaat Lefty O'Doul Maury Wills

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  3. #2
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    The Vets' Committee only votes every other year right now. Here's the 2005 results from their last election ...
    Code:
     
     2005 Election
     80 Total votes cast
     75% required for election
    
     Gil Hodges      52  65.0% 
     Ron Santo       52  65.0% 
     Tony Oliva      45  56.3% 
     Jim Kaat        43  53.8% 
     Joe Torre       36  45.0% 
     Maury Wills     26  32.5% 
     Vada Pinson     23  28.8% 
     Luis Tiant      20  25.0% 
     Roger Maris     19  23.8% 
     Marty Marion    16  20.0% 
     Ken Boyer       15  18.8% 
     Joe Gordon      14  17.5% 
     Carl Mays       12  15.0% 
     Minnie Minoso   12  15.0% 
     Dick Allen      12  15.0% 
     Curt Flood      10  12.5% 
     Wes Ferrell      9  11.3% 
     Mickey Lolich    9  11.3% 
     Don Newcombe     8  10.0% 
     Sparky Lyle      7   8.8% 
     Elston Howard    6   7.5% 
     Bobby Bonds      4   5.0% 
     Rocky Colavito   4   5.0% 
     Thurman Munson   2   2.5% 
     Smoky Joe Wood   2   2.5%
    A case could be made for Vada Pinson, but I'm not sure how persuasive it'd be. His credentials match that of some of the lower tier Hall of Fame center fielders, such as Richie Ashburn, Larry Doby, Earl Averill, Hack Wilson and Kirby Puckett, and Bernie Williams is also a current day player of a similar mold. Pinson's just received so little support that I don't really see him ever reaching the Hall.

    Carl Mays will never see Cooperstown because of the Ray Chapman incident.

    Ron Santo might get elected this year, and either way it's going to be very close. Ryne Sandberg is a new Vets' Committee voter this year, and he stated during his induction speech in 2005 that he's voting for Santo. Peter Gammons is also a new Vets' Committee voter this year, and he's stated in the past that Santo is a glaring Hall omission so I'd expect Gammons to vote for Santo. Right now, Santo looks like the best hope to break through with the new Vets' Committee, and let's face it, the guy definitely deserves to be there.

    I have no idea why Gil Hodges receives as much support as he does.

    For the upcoming Vets' Committee election, there are 84 total voters. If everybody votes, 63 votes will be required for election. Here's the current voters for the upcoming 2007 Vets' Committee election ...

    Hall of Famers (61)

    Hank Aaron
    Sparky Anderson
    Luis Aparicio
    Ernie Banks
    Johnny Bench
    Yogi Berra
    Wade Boggs
    George Brett
    Lou Brock
    Jim Bunning
    Rod Carew
    Steve Carlton
    Gary Carter
    Orlando Cepeda
    Bobby Doerr
    Dennis Eckersley
    Bob Feller
    Rollie Fingers
    Carlton Fisk
    Whitey Ford
    Bob Gibson
    Monte Irvin
    Reggie Jackson
    Fergie Jenkins
    Al Kaline
    George Kell
    Harmon Killebrew
    Ralph Kiner
    Sandy Koufax
    Tom Lasorda
    Lee MacPhail
    Juan Marichal
    Willie Mays
    Bill Mazeroski
    Willie McCovey
    Paul Molitor
    Joe Morgan
    Eddie Murray
    Stan Musial
    Phil Niekro
    Jim Palmer
    Tony Pérez
    Gaylord Perry
    Phil Rizzuto
    Robin Roberts
    Brooks Robinson
    Frank Robinson
    Nolan Ryan
    Ryne Sandberg
    Mike Schmidt
    Red Schoendienst
    Tom Seaver
    Ozzie Smith
    Duke Snider
    Bruce Sutter
    Don Sutton
    Earl Weaver
    Billy Williams
    Dave Winfield
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Robin Yount

    Ford C. Frick Award Recipients (14)

    Marty Brennaman
    Herb Carneal
    Jerry Coleman
    Gene Elston
    Joe Garagiola
    Ernie Harwell
    Milo Hamilton
    Jaime Jarrin
    Harry Kalas
    Felo Ramírez
    Vin Scully
    Lon Simmons
    Bob Uecker
    Bob Wolff

    J.G. Taylor Spink Award Recipients (8)
    Murray Chass
    Charley Feeney
    Peter Gammons
    Jerome Holtzman
    Hal McCoy
    Jack Lang
    Ross Newhan
    Tracy Ringolsby

    Former Veterans Committee Members (1)

    John McHale (term expires after 2007 election)
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    By Cyclone792:
    "Ron Santo might get elected this year, and either way it's going to be very close. Ryne Sandberg is a new Vets' Committee voter this year, and he stated during his induction speech in 2005 that he's voting for Santo. Peter Gammons is also a new Vets' Committee voter this year, and he's stated in the past that Santo is a glaring Hall omission so I'd expect Gammons to vote for Santo. Right now, Santo looks like the best hope to break through with the new Vets' Committee, and let's face it, the guy definitely deserves to be there."
    Personally, I disagree with your statement that 'the guy definately deserves to be there'. I'd say he's borderline at best. At the same time I don't think Ryne Sandberg should be voting because I don't think that Sandberg deserves to be in the HOF either.

    By Cyclone792:
    I have no idea why Gil Hodges receives as much support as he does.
    Perhaps if you had seen him play you would have an idea.

    Cyclone, I'm not beating up on you here because I appreciate your work but there are posters on this board that are number oriented and there are posters that are action oriented. I'm not saying one is better than the other but I am saying the perspective is different. I can read and understand the stats but, being 'action oriented', things that show up on the field but aren't necessarily easily numerated carry a lot of weight with me. One of those 'things' is who I feared in a lineup. Who did I hate to see come up in a crital time. Hodges was of that mold---Sandberg and Santo weren't. (shrug)

    Rem

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    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    By Cyclone792:

    Personally, I disagree with your statement that 'the guy definately deserves to be there'. I'd say he's borderline at best. At the same time I don't think Ryne Sandberg should be voting because I don't think that Sandberg deserves to be in the HOF either.

    By Cyclone792:

    Perhaps if you had seen him play you would have an idea.

    Cyclone, I'm not beating up on you here because I appreciate your work but there are posters on this board that are number oriented and there are posters that are action oriented. I'm not saying one is better than the other but I am saying the perspective is different. I can read and understand the stats but, being 'action oriented', things that show up on the field but aren't necessarily easily numerated carry a lot of weight with me. One of those 'things' is who I feared in a lineup. Who did I hate to see come up in a crital time. Hodges was of that mold---Sandberg and Santo weren't. (shrug)

    Rem
    Contrary to what you may believe, I enjoy the different perspective far more than people reading my posts may guess. Different perspectives on the game and its players are necessary, otherwise as a fan, you're cheating yourself. I'm not naive to this; nobody is.

    The large downfall of relying too heavily on an entirely subjective stance is when that subjectivity either contradicts the recorded, statistical record, or it is so loosely defined that it is in no way capable of fully defining the actual recorded, statistical record.

    I just finished reading an old Baseball Digest article where numerous Hall of Fame hitters were asked to name the toughest pitcher they ever faced. Several of the hitters named Ewell Blackwell as that pitcher. He was "lean and mean," "a little nasty," and had that wicked sidearm delivery coming at you from third base. I guarantee you opposing hitters feared him.

    Ewell Blackwell was a great pitcher, one of the best pitchers the Reds have ever had in their history as a franchise. Hitters hated hitting against him, and they've openly admitted they hated hitting against him. Still, by the current Hall of Fame standards with the pitchers inducted, that doesn't mean Ewell Blackwell is a Hall of Famer. The recorded, statistical events just don't support it.

    One of the hitters I've feared the most in all my baseball watching just dropped off the BBWAA ballot this week. Is he a true, deserving Hall of Famer based on the current standards? Perhaps so, perhaps not. In his peak, he was absolutely feared not only by opposing pitchers and teams but also by fans. But the statistical record for that player makes him borderline at best.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  6. #5
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    I'd like to see Kaat and Maris inducted.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    I was looking at the list of players being considered by the Veterans Committee, including several with Reds connections (sorry, I couldn't get it to format right). Pinson had the most significant time, but Flood started with us, Mays had several good seasons in the 20's and Newcombe had a few years with us towards its end. Voting results will be announced February 27th.

    Players Ballot

    Code:
    Dick Allen Mickey Lolich Tony Oliva 
    Bobby Bonds Sparky Lyle Al Oliver 
    Ken Boyer Marty Marion Vada Pinson 
    Rocky Colavito Roger Maris Ron Santo 
    Wes Ferrell Carl Mays Luis Tiant 
    Curt Flood Minnie Minoso Joe Torre 
    Joe Gordon Thurman Munson Cecil Travis 
    Gil Hodges Don Newcombe Mickey Vernon 
    Jim Kaat Lefty O'Doul Maury Wills
    Of the players are that list, I would definitely vote for Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Minnie Minoso, and Jim Kaat. I would give careful consideration to Tony Oliva, Joe Torre and Joe Gordon.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    What's the opinion of Bobby Bonds? Any chance that he will ever get enough support? I think it's going to be very hard for any of these guys to make it outside of maybe Santo. I could see Torre making it after he retires from managing.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    By Cyclone:
    The large downfall of relying too heavily on an entirely subjective stance is when that subjectivity either contradicts the recorded, statistical record, or it is so loosely defined that it is in no way capable of fully defining the actual recorded, statistical record.
    By the way I read this statement Cyclone I take it that you are defining statistical records as the ultimate tool to judge a player. (Please let me know if that's incorrect.) I would certainly disagree with that idea and would say that there are times when stats make a player look more or less valuable than observation would indicate.

    Rem

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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Posters in this thread have expressed a desire to see a number of players voted into the HOF. Among them: Kaat, Maris, Boyer, Santo, Minoso, Gordon, Oliva and Torre. All good ballplayers, none great ballplayers, IMO.

    I guess the question is who and what qualifies as great. We all have our pesonal standards but none of the players above make the grade with me. The question becomes: is this The Baseball Hall of Fame or The Baseball Hall of Pretty Good? That tipping point fuels the debate every year and will probably continue to do so as long as people watch and discuss baseball.

    Rem

  11. #10
    Baseball card addict MrCinatit's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    I would love to see Mickey Lolich, Tony Oliva, Sparky Lyle, Vada Pinson, Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Curt Flood, Minnie Minoso, Joe Torre, Thurman Munson, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat in there.
    Lyle was the second wave of "new" relievers, after Face, Abernathy and Wilhelm. I always thought he made the roll of the reliever more respectable at that time, along with Fingers and Marshall.
    I think Flood should go in for the whole free agency thing.
    Both Torre and Hodges should go in because of a nice combination of a good playing and managerial career.
    If only Minosa and Munson had the chance to play in the majors a longer period of time....
    And, well, I've always been a fan of Lolich, Oliva, Pinson, Santo, Tiant and Kitty Kaat.

  12. #11
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    Posters in this thread have expressed a desire to see a number of players voted into the HOF. Among them: Kaat, Maris, Boyer, Santo, Minoso, Gordon, Oliva and Torre. All good ballplayers, none great ballplayers, IMO.

    I guess the question is who and what qualifies as great. We all have our pesonal standards but none of the players above make the grade with me. The question becomes: is this The Baseball Hall of Fame or The Baseball Hall of Pretty Good? That tipping point fuels the debate every year and will probably continue to do so as long as people watch and discuss baseball.

    Rem
    According to baseball-reference.com, the following players' careers are comparable with the following hall of famers.

    Jim Kaat

    Robin Roberts
    Fergie Jenkins
    Eppa Rixey
    Early Wynn
    Burleigh Grimes
    Red Ruffing

    Roger Maris

    None

    Ken Boyer

    None

    Ron Santo

    None

    Minnie Minoso

    None

    Joe Gordon

    Larry Doby

    Tony Oliva

    George Kelly

    Joe Torre

    Bobby Doerr
    Ryne Sandberg
    Tony Lazzeri


    Looks to me like a strong case could be made for Kaat, but if he makes it in, then Blyleven eventually has to as well.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  13. #12
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    By Cyclone:

    By the way I read this statement Cyclone I take it that you are defining statistical records as the ultimate tool to judge a player. (Please let me know if that's incorrect.) I would certainly disagree with that idea and would say that there are times when stats make a player look more or less valuable than observation would indicate.

    Rem
    Primary tool, yes. Ultimate tool? Not necessarily. I could make a compelling case that Wes Ferrell belongs in the Hall of Fame, and if somebody looked at his stats they'd probably go "What?!"

    Gil Hodges was a good player, a memorable manager due to the 1969 Mets, and also one of the nicest players in the history of the game. He played during an era of neutral run scoring, not a pitcher's era, and he played in a hitter's park for the bulk of his career and during his peak years. If Hodges was even borderline statistically, I wouldn't have a problem with those other factors giving Hodges the boost he'd need to make it. But statistically Hodges isn't even all that close to being borderline. Being a really outstanding guy just doesn't make up all the ground necessary, IMO.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Lefty O'Doul had a lifetime average of .349. 4th best all time. Weird career but deserves to be in.

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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Handofdeath View Post
    Lefty O'Doul had a lifetime average of .349. 4th best all time. Weird career but deserves to be in.
    Also a bona fide civic legend in San Francisco and one of the driving forces behind that city becoming the great baseball town it is today. An ambassador for the game in post-war Japan as well.

    It's kind of a travesty he's been ignored this long.

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    Re: Veteran's Committe Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    Also a bona fide civic legend in San Francisco and one of the driving forces behind that city becoming the great baseball town it is today. An ambassador for the game in post-war Japan as well.

    It's kind of a travesty he's been ignored this long.

    Had a great tavern in DT SF for many years.

    Rem


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