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Thread: Streetcars in Cincy?

  1. #46
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoogMinAmo View Post

    The city for the first time in decades had a positive population gain in the last census.

    The banks seems to be under true, progressive management

    Fountain Square is being renovaed to give the city center a new image.

    Over-the-Rhine is slowly being gentrified and recapturing its past glory.
    Population gain?
    No big city in America lost a greater percentage of its people during the past five years than Cincinnati, new U.S. Census figures show. Cincinnati lost 6.8 percent of its population from 2000 to 2005, taking Detroit's place as the biggest percentage loser among cities with a population of 100,000 or more June 2006. Link
    The same progessive banks management that thought it was a really good idea to spend a bundle of money to pave the mud pit for a temporary circus? Link I can't seem to find the exact number, but it was a fair amount IIRC.

    Fountain square renovation? They moved the fountain around, put in a TV and repaved the square. Big woopie. I'm sure the droves of people who will flock to the square to see the same fountain that has been moved a few feet woln't mind dodging the bullets to see the big show. How in the world will this do anything to create a revitalized downtown?

    OTR recapturing it's past glory? Wow. Check out this link Or this link I'm not sure, is that the past glory you are refering to?

    Cincinnati is in a horrible state. I agree that it's one thing to complain, another to make an effort to improve the situation. My solution is simple. Until the city and county government can deal with the rampant crime and complete lack of anything interesting in the city (short of a few selected locations), I choose to spend my money elsewhere.
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    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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  3. #47
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Interesting links, Lt.

    I know it isn't a realistic solution, but it looks like the best thing for Over The Rhine would be about a month and 10 bulldozers working 24-7.

    The police officers who put their lives on the line working in conditions like that have my utmost respect. How brave are they?
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  4. #48
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Interesting links, Lt.

    I know it isn't a realistic solution, but it looks like the best thing for Over The Rhine would be about a month and 10 bulldozers working 24-7.

    The police officers who put their lives on the line working in conditions like that have my utmost respect. How brave are they?
    Actually, how about the city and developers buying out current landlords and simply evict or refuse to renew leases when they come up? Once you start clearing out current tenants, begin selling to those who wish to renovate or develop the properties yourself. The problem with such a plan is that you need enough developers, enough demand, and enough police to keep a lid on crime in the area. You also have to worry about current residents getting wind of the idea. People usually aren't keen to the idea of getting pushed out in favor of gentrification. The Wolsteins have been trying to buy up properties in the Flats in Cleveland for years to build condos and shops to revitalize the area. Once people got wind of what was going on, suddenly there was a push to keep property owners from selling to them.

    As far as police officers go, considering how often police officers who work in a major city get fired upon, I have a lot of respect for what they do as well. One officer who was giving a presentation at school had been shot 6 times in the line of duty since joining the force in the '70s. Simply making a routine traffic stop in some areas can put an officer at great risk.
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  5. #49
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Population gain?

    The same progessive banks management that thought it was a really good idea to spend a bundle of money to pave the mud pit for a temporary circus? Link I can't seem to find the exact number, but it was a fair amount IIRC.

    Fountain square renovation? They moved the fountain around, put in a TV and repaved the square. Big woopie. I'm sure the droves of people who will flock to the square to see the same fountain that has been moved a few feet woln't mind dodging the bullets to see the big show. How in the world will this do anything to create a revitalized downtown?

    OTR recapturing it's past glory? Wow. Check out this link Or this link I'm not sure, is that the past glory you are refering to?

    Cincinnati is in a horrible state. I agree that it's one thing to complain, another to make an effort to improve the situation. My solution is simple. Until the city and county government can deal with the rampant crime and complete lack of anything interesting in the city (short of a few selected locations), I choose to spend my money elsewhere.
    Yes, population gain. http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs...cincinnati.asp

    Yes, putting the mud pit to good use, even in the short term, is worthwhile. IIRC, the city still made mone on the whole Cirque de Soleil visit. It is not a sustainable decision, but it was profitable.

    Regarding the FS renovation, it is still ongoing. When it is complete, there will be much more to it than just moving the fountain. If you made the trip downtown during the holidays, the new square was THE place to be. The larger rink was packed, and the new tower place restaurants were packed.

    Regarding crime downtown, that is something I have no reply to. It does need to get better, for people to feel safer and to improve the image. The only consolation is that when more people live in an area, major crime happens less.

    Oh, and about something to do downtown, it will not happen unless people live there. This is not a chicken or egg comment, people need to live there first. Oh, and people ARE moving there. The condo market is booming, and downtwon is one of the hottest local real estate markets.

    I must admit LtlAbner, I am not sure what you want from me. Do you want me to concede, and say cincy is hopeless? Do you want me to say things aren't changing for the better? Yes, the crime is an issue that needs addressing, but horrible state it is not.

    Oh, and I would be appalled if OTR was dozed, there is not a more beautiful untapped resource architecturally that I have seen. There are developers there now, but it is happening on a very small scale. There are thousands of residences that need to be addressed, and only a few hundred have been. The Banks is supposed to supply the 'new' for downtown, while OTR is the historic anchor. For anyone that wants to dream, visit Russian Hill in San Francisco for what OTR could be.

    Yahtzee, what Stark and the Weinsteins are proposing for Cleveland are both controversial and problematic for many reasons. The biggest issue is that they are applying generic suburban solutions for a very specific urban problem.

    Development and architecture is an interest and a passion. Unfortunately it requires a sense of optimism as well as factual support. It is definitely not for the weak of heart.
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    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoogMinAmo View Post
    Yahtzee, what Stark and the Weinsteins are proposing for Cleveland are both controversial and problematic for many reasons. The biggest issue is that they are applying generic suburban solutions for a very specific urban problem.

    Development and architecture is an interest and a passion. Unfortunately it requires a sense of optimism as well as factual support. It is definitely not for the weak of heart.
    That is true. Maybe it's not the best example, but the push back is similar to the push back I've noticed in other cities when it comes to revitalization efforts. The main complaints always seem to be that big money developers want to push people out and destroy the diversity of the neighborhood. To that I would argue that neighborhoods like Over-the-Rhine aren't necessarily that diverse to begin with and that development, if done right, will actually increase diversity within the neighborhood. I would argue that many of the neighborhoods of Chicago show much more diversity after a decent level of gentrifcation than they had beforehand. And if done properly, it preserves much of the architectual beauty of the neighborhood.

    Unfortunately, I get the impression that many people in these neighborhoods don't trust the police (no matter what city you live in) and, while they want neighborhood revitalization, they don't want to have to move and they don't want to pay higher rent. The problem is that you can't have less crime and nicer homes without accepting more police and higher rent.
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  7. #51
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Unfortunately, I get the impression that many people in these neighborhoods don't trust the police (no matter what city you live in) and, while they want neighborhood revitalization, they don't want to have to move and they don't want to pay higher rent. The problem is that you can't have less crime and nicer homes without accepting more police and higher rent.
    "Neighborhood reivtalization" is another phrase that means socioeconomic change in a neighborhood. Out with the low-income, in with the high. Generally that entails large-scale change in order to protect property values (nobody would move into OTR if only 1 street was cleaned up, for example).

    So, while the people in neighborhoods like OTR might want revitalization, those people are not the ones that will reap the benefit of such change -- they'll be bought out and evicted to make room for the people that are going to be bringing about the change.
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  8. #52
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoogMinAmo View Post
    Yes, population gain. http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs...cincinnati.asp

    Yes, putting the mud pit to good use, even in the short term, is worthwhile. IIRC, the city still made mone on the whole Cirque de Soleil visit. It is not a sustainable decision, but it was profitable.

    Regarding the FS renovation, it is still ongoing. When it is complete, there will be much more to it than just moving the fountain. If you made the trip downtown during the holidays, the new square was THE place to be. The larger rink was packed, and the new tower place restaurants were packed.

    Regarding crime downtown, that is something I have no reply to. It does need to get better, for people to feel safer and to improve the image. The only consolation is that when more people live in an area, major crime happens less.

    I must admit LtlAbner, I am not sure what you want from me. Do you want me to concede, and say cincy is hopeless? Do you want me to say things aren't changing for the better? Yes, the crime is an issue that needs addressing, but horrible state it is not.
    That's interesting info on the population.

    So they made some money on the circus? This does what to keep people comming downtown? At least they made money, that's a nice change from most of their projects. My point was that the city wants to rely on "attractions" that are either "limited use" (circus, musesum, submarine) or nothing different than what can be found in the burbs.

    Good to hear the resturants were packed. That is good news indeed. I'm glad people were ice skating. Not sure how that is going to keep people comming downtown in August but at least they had some success.

    I don't want anything from you. I was just pointing out that the situation in Cincinnati is not the rosey picture you pointed out. I admire your hopeful nature for the future but people seem to want to avoid the real problems downtown (crime, lack of attractions, anti-small business attitidude) and slap "bandaid" solutions like ice skating rinks, moving fountains and a few condos out on Eastern Avenue.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  9. #53
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Let's not forget that Cincinnati is in such a great state of affairs that they let the Maisonette close its doors.

    Cincinnati is a ghost town, and there's zero reason to go down there for any positive reason. Look at the development of Newport and Covington. People go across the river for their dining and entertainment.

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    Porkchop Sandwiches DoogMinAmo's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    That's interesting info on the population.

    So they made some money on the circus? This does what to keep people comming downtown? At least they made money, that's a nice change from most of their projects. My point was that the city wants to rely on "attractions" that are either "limited use" (circus, musesum, submarine) or nothing different than what can be found in the burbs.

    Good to hear the resturants were packed. That is good news indeed. I'm glad people were ice skating. Not sure how that is going to keep people comming downtown in August but at least they had some success.

    I don't want anything from you. I was just pointing out that the situation in Cincinnati is not the rosey picture you pointed out. I admire your hopeful nature for the future but people seem to want to avoid the real problems downtown (crime, lack of attractions, anti-small business attitidude) and slap "bandaid" solutions like ice skating rinks, moving fountains and a few condos out on Eastern Avenue.

    You talk about getting people downtown, and then discount when they are brought there. You talk of wanting attractions, and then claim they are "limited use." The idea is to get people down there first, defeat the stigma of "unsafe" and then they feel more comfortable repeating the visit for other "attractions." Soon, they are more and more comfortable just spending time there. However, Cincinnati has a major crime problem, there is no denying it. It should and will be addressed as population and funding increase. The condo development is much greater than a couple on Easter Ave.

    Downtown does desperately need an identity, and the two sports franchises are a good start. Building a neighborhood between the two, where people can go and play before and after, and even more can live and work will only benefit the city. That is why the Banks is so important, I think we agree on that. Success there could spark growth and success to the north (although I wonder how much capping Fort Washington Way will really work in connecting the Banks to the city). OTR is a neighborhood that could give Cincinnati another positive identity, if it is revitalized properly. Having the new on one side and the old on the other with the central business district in between seems like a good oppportunity, with great potential.

    I am not trying to paint a purely rosie red picture, I am just saying the "same old Cincinnati f*** up" attitude may no longer apply. Things are changing for the better, even if slowly. They don't happen over night, and the first thing that needs to happen is the dumping of the helpless attitude by its population. The same thing happened with Indy, Columbus, and Louisville. It will happen here.

    HighLife, what happened with the Maissonette was a shame. Luken decided that the city's money was no longer best spent on supporting retailers, because they would stay if people (residents) came. Losing a five star restaurant hurt a lot for the image of the city, but why it was lost is a mystery. They claim the riots caused irreparable damage, but you have Jean Robert working wonders and growing amazingly in the same market at the same time. There had been talk of the Comisars' inabilty to run a restaurant, and inability to evolve due to changing demographics and society. Maybe the five star rating hurt it more than it helped? Either way, is it really the city's responsiblity to make sure that a business is running properly and efficiently? Where do you draw the line? How about the corner deli where the office workers grab their lunch, or even the import carpet shop?

    CE, while agree almost entire with what you say, the nature of OTR is it can only be done on a small scale, save for what is happening on Vine street by Central Parkway.
    Last edited by DoogMinAmo; 01-21-2007 at 12:59 PM.
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoogMinAmo View Post
    HighLife, what happened with the Maissonette was a shame. Luken decided that the city's money was no longer best spent on supporting retailers, because they would stay if people (residents) came. Losing a five star restaurant hurt a lot for the image of the city, but why it was lost is a mystery. They claim the riots caused irreparable damage, but you have Jean Robert working wonders and growing amazingly in the same market at the same time. There had been talk of the Comisars' inabilty to run a restaurant, and inability to evolve due to changing demographics and society. Maybe the five star rating hurt it more than it helped? Either way, is it really the city's responsiblity to make sure that a business is running properly and efficiently? Where do you draw the line? How about the corner deli where the office workers grab their lunch, or even the import carpet shop?

    Granted, the Comisars' ran Chester's Roadhouse into the ground, but they're doing remarkably well with the Golden Lamb. Is that a Lebanon vs. Cincinnati thing?

    I can't, for the life of me, remember if La Normandie is still open, which was also part of their group. I know La Normandie and Maisonette shared a kitchen.

    Unfortunately, the only other "signature" restaurant I can think of when I think of Cincinnati is Palomino.

    Redfish recently closed, and while wasn't unique to Cincinnati, I thought made Cincinnati unique.

    Are there any other "signature" restaurants unique to Cincinnati aside from Palomino and the Jeff Ruby joints?

    I think this is a big part to the development and nurturing of Cincinnati if you have nothing to offer your town an identity.

  12. #56
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Are there any other "signature" restaurants unique to Cincinnati aside from Palomino and the Jeff Ruby joints?
    The Montgomery Inn. And Skyline

    The Precinct, too, might fall under that category.

    I do believe that La Normandie has closed but I'm not positive. If I recall correctly, there was a very specific reason the Comisars refused to keep the Maisonette going -- ie. people I've heard reference this put the blame squarely on them, not the city -- but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.
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  13. #57
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Granted, the Comisars' ran Chester's Roadhouse into the ground, but they're doing remarkably well with the Golden Lamb.

    Are there any other "signature" restaurants unique to Cincinnati aside from Palomino and the Jeff Ruby joints?
    The Comisars sold the Golden Lamb last year. All of their other restaurants went out of business. (Nice job, Nate )

    A list Cincinnati's other "signature" restaurants would have to include Pigall's, Boca, The Pheonix, Primavista, The Celestial, Orchids, The Palace, The Waterfront/The Precinct/Jeff Ruby's/Carlo & Johnny/Tropicana, and Daveed's, with Pho Paris, Honey, Aqua, and Nectar among a long list of local treasures.
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  14. #58
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsland View Post
    The Comisars sold the Golden Lamb last year. All of their other restaurants went out of business. (Nice job, Nate )

    A list Cincinnati's other "signature" restaurants would have to include Pigall's, Boca, The Pheonix, Primavista, The Celestial, Orchids, The Palace, The Waterfront/The Precinct/Jeff Ruby's/Carlo & Johnny/Tropicana, and Daveed's, with Pho Paris, Honey, Aqua, and Nectar among a long list of local treasures.
    Redsland clearly leads a more varied cuisinal existence than I do.
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  15. #59
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    If I recall correctly, there was a very specific reason the Comisars refused to keep the Maisonette going -- ie. people I've heard reference this put the blame squarely on them, not the city -- but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.
    Yeah, Nate Comisar was handed a thriving multi-restaurant business with deep ties to the community and hundreds of loyal customers who gladly paid $12 for soup and who fronted him over a quarter of a million dollars just to keep the doors open, yet somehow Nate Comisar couldn't keep the business afloat. He spent three years trying to talk the city into giving him handouts--on the theory that the city gave them to Convergys, and after all, Nate only emplyed about 30,000 fewer people, so what's the problem?--and when that failed, he spent two more years looking for places to move Maisonette and La Normandie to. His solution: take them to Silverton, far away from any hotels or convention centers, and where he couldn't afford the property he wanted and couldn't get building permits approved for the construction he needed.

    The guy was a stone cold idiot.
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    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Streetcars in Cincy?

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    The Montgomery Inn. And Skyline
    In terms of restaurants visitors simply have to try when they visit, those two certainly apply. (Not that I'd say either has much in common with Maisonette, which is how the conversation got here.)
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