Turn Off Ads?
Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011121314 LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 209

Thread: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

  1. #151
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,271

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Given Saarloos' ground ball tendencies, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this ...
    • Saarloos career at home: 0.75 HR/9
    • Saarloos career at Network Associates: 0.85 HR/9
    • Saarloos career on the road: 1.30 HR/9

    He'll get a boost from the AL/NL switch, but he's also moving out of a home park park that suppresses home runs and moving into GABP. Also, as has been mentioned previously, the NL Central road parks where Saarloos will log a decent chunk of road innings are also HR friendly.

    If Kirk Saarloos walks as many guys as he strikes out in 2007, which he's done the past three seasons, and puts up a HR/9 in the 1.30 range in 2007, which he's done for his career on the road, then there won't be many people satisfied one bit with his performance come summer.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #152
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Portland, Or
    Posts
    5,041

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I'd take EZ's 2006 over Saarloos 2005 in GAB any day of the week.

    EZ K's more batters, walks fewer batters, has better overall control and is four years younger.

    EZ is better than Saarloos.
    That makes no sense. Ramirez' 2006 was horrible. It was worse than Milton's and worse than Lohse'.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

  4. #153
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,707

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    I like the trade, but I can understand the criticism of Saarloos. What I don't understand is the expectations for certain pitchers who are not highly rated prospects and have had, at most, limited success to date. Please show me the basis for the upbeat expectations for 2007 for guys like Ramirez, Belisle, Shafer and Salmon.

    On top of everything, keep in mind that Ramirez, who I like as a young pitcher, and Belisle, about whom I am less positive, both had injury plagued 2006 seasons. Do we have info that they are both over their physical problems and are ready to throw 180 innings?

    Krivsky can't count on the maybes presented by these guys and so he went out and got a decent experienced starter -- and got him cheaply. Hard for me to understand what better in-house options he had.

  5. #154
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,439

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    That makes no sense. Ramirez' 2006 was horrible. It was worse than Milton's and worse than Lohse'.
    the overall results were worse. But it ain't all W's and L's

    in 2006, EZ had a K/9 of 5.97 in Cincinnati, and 8.55 in AAA. His HR/9 was 1.21, and .90 at AAA. He had a 2.51 BB/9, and a .90 BB/9 in AAA.

    In 2005 in 159 IP Sarloos K'd 53 guys.
    In 2006 in 104 IP EZ k'd 69 guys.

    It really isn't even close. BTW, EZ had a better K rate than Milton too. Now Lohse did have a better year (half year really) than all three. but really, he isn't much of a K pitcher either, and his numbers will fall back to his career norms.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #155
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Shelburne Falls, MA
    Posts
    10,125

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    On top of everything, keep in mind that Ramirez, who I like as a young pitcher, and Belisle, about whom I am less positive, both had injury plagued 2006 seasons. Do we have info that they are both over their physical problems and are ready to throw 180 innings?

    Krivsky can't count on the maybes presented by these guys and so he went out and got a decent experienced starter -- and got him cheaply. Hard for me to understand what better in-house options he had.
    Exactly. EZ and Belisle need to show they can stay healthy.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  7. #156
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,439

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    On top of everything, keep in mind that Ramirez, who I like as a young pitcher, and Belisle, about whom I am less positive, both had injury plagued 2006 seasons. Do we have info that they are both over their physical problems and are ready to throw 180 innings?
    Injury plagued is a phrase I would not use to describe EZ's 2006. "Came down with an injury due to the complete inept handling of his manager" is a little better.

    Belisle has back issues. He will always have back issues. But his stuff is light years ahead of Saarloos'.

    So Salmon is unproven, but half the board has Bailey as the #3 starter by June?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  8. #157
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,946

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    Absolutely ridiculous. Saarloos in not junk. Don't use adjectives so loosely.
    I posted this in another thread but it is on target here too:

    Here' a comparison of guys on the Reds roster based upon Pecota projections for '07:

    Belisle: GB%: 53% ; PERA: 4.60;
    E. Ramirez: GB%: 46% ; PERA: 5.06;
    Lohse: GB%: 45%; PERA: 5.05;
    Saarloos: GB%: 53%; PERA: 5.15;
    Livingston: GB%: 46%; PERA: 5.16;
    Milton: GB%: 37%; PERA: 5.50;

    Saarloos is roster fodder projected to give innings at below league average quality. He basically fits right in with the back end guys adding depth to the dregs fighting it out for the #5 slot/mop up guy role. I really don't mean to be beating him up like it probably appears that I am... but really Saarloos doesn't bring a ton to the team. It was a trade of spare parts by both GM's where each get to spend less on the new part than they would've had to have spent on the alternative. It's a move with no real downside for either team but it's also one with not a lot of upside. The Reds didn't acquire a #3. They got competition for the #5 spot/bullpen.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #158
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,707

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Injury plagued is a phrase I would not use to describe EZ's 2006. "Came down with an injury due to the complete inept handling of his manager" is a little better.

    Belisle has back issues. He will always have back issues. But his stuff is light years ahead of Saarloos'.

    So Salmon is unproven, but half the board has Bailey as the #3 starter by June?
    I like EZ. But he had an ERA over 5.3 last year. He was very inconsistent, although he did have some good outings. Given his injury -- however you categorize it -- the Reds just can't count on him this year. Frankly, I'd like to see him, if healthy, as a long reliever for awhile, before he is awarded a starting slot.

    Belisle may have stuff, and he certainly throws harder than Saarloos, but his back is a major problem. The guy only pitched 40 innings last year. There is nothing in his performance post-back surgery to indicate that Belisle can be a major league starter.

    Don't see how you can compare Salmon to Bailey. Based on everything I've read, Salmon is an ordinary prospect, who did have success last year but at age 26 (he is now 27) in AA and AAA. I hope he found something and has a great year, but again you can't count on him to be a contributor at the big league level.

  10. #159
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    4,138

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I posted this in another thread but it is on target here too:

    Here' a comparison of guys on the Reds roster based upon Pecota projections for '07:

    Belisle: GB%: 53% ; PERA: 4.60;
    E. Ramirez: GB%: 46% ; PERA: 5.06;
    Lohse: GB%: 45%; PERA: 5.05;
    Saarloos: GB%: 53%; PERA: 5.15;
    Livingston: GB%: 46%; PERA: 5.16;
    Milton: GB%: 37%; PERA: 5.50;

    Saarloos is roster fodder projected to give innings at below league average quality. He basically fits right in with the back end guys adding depth to the dregs fighting it out for the #5 slot/mop up guy role. I really don't mean to be beating him up like it probably appears that I am... but really Saarloos doesn't bring a ton to the team. It was a trade of spare parts by both GM's where each get to spend less on the new part than they would've had to have spent on the alternative. It's a move with no real downside for either team but it's also one with not a lot of upside. The Reds didn't acquire a #3. They got competition for the #5 spot/bullpen.
    Just wondering, what is the breakout and regression chances of those same pitchers per PECOTA.

    GL

  11. #160
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    portland, oregon
    Posts
    14,746

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I posted this in another thread but it is on target here too:

    [B][U]..... The Reds didn't acquire a #3. They got competition for the #5 spot/bullpen.
    I agree. It's just filler depth as they don't have any ML starters other than Bailey that are even close to contributing
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  12. #161
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Portland, Or
    Posts
    5,041

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    TRF, there's numbers that can go for and against Ramirez having a better or worse 2006 than Milton or Lohse. That vast array of numbers I use leave him having worse numbers, but Saarloos' 2005 was head and shoulders better than all three. Saarloos' 2005 numbers would make him a solid #3 starter on this team. Ramirez gets the age factor, but I'm only looking at numbers.

    Pitcher's are strange ducks. It's difficult to predict what you'll get from any of these four in 2007, but I think that Saarloos' has a greater chance of putting up the best numbers of the four. Whether that translates to wins or losses in 2007 is out of his control as that has as much to do with run support and bullpen help.

    There's so much need for improved talent on this team and Saarloos offers that for 2007 at a good price.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

  13. #162
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,439

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I like EZ. But he had an ERA over 5.3 last year. He was very inconsistent, although he did have some good outings. Given his injury -- however you categorize it -- the Reds just can't count on him this year. Frankly, I'd like to see him, if healthy, as a long reliever for awhile, before he is awarded a starting slot.

    Belisle may have stuff, and he certainly throws harder than Saarloos, but his back is a major problem. The guy only pitched 40 innings last year. There is nothing in his performance post-back surgery to indicate that Belisle can be a major league starter.

    Don't see how you can compare Salmon to Bailey. Based on everything I've read, Salmon is an ordinary prospect, who did have success last year but at age 26 (he is now 27) in AA and AAA. I hope he found something and has a great year, but again you can't count on him to be a contributor at the big league level.
    Salmon just took a while to develop. He turned a corner at age 25. He's a converted starter that took a little while to adjust to relief. I'd say he is about as unproven in the Majors as Bailey.

    Since we haven't heard a word about EZ, I'd say only the Reds and EZ know what his status is.

    gonelong does PECOTA have projections for Santos?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  14. #163
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Amarillo, TX
    Posts
    13,439

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    TRF, there's numbers that can go for and against Ramirez having a better or worse 2006 than Milton or Lohse. That vast array of numbers I use leave him having worse numbers, but Saarloos' 2005 was head and shoulders better than all three. Saarloos' 2005 numbers would make him a solid #3 starter on this team. Ramirez gets the age factor, but I'm only looking at numbers.

    Pitcher's are strange ducks. It's difficult to predict what you'll get from any of these four in 2007, but I think that Saarloos' has a greater chance of putting up the best numbers of the four. Whether that translates to wins or losses in 2007 is out of his control as that has as much to do with run support and bullpen help.

    There's so much need for improved talent on this team and Saarloos offers that for 2007 at a good price.
    What numbers? name one thing Sarrloos did in 2005 better than EZ did in 2006? Other than ERA and W's (the first is deceiving, the second is a team dependent stat) name one thing he did better.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  15. #164
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Posts
    2,271

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    To receive a player of Saarloos' age with the number of innings he's pitched in the Majors so far, the ONLY scenario for making the trade if you're giving away younger talent is that the upside of the younger player must be better than the Major Leaguer, and the upside must be progressively better the younger the player is as his chances of reaching the Majors diminishes the further away that he is from being there.
    ED, I am quite aware of trade dynamics. My point was that the A's liked Neu as well, a similar soft-tosser that got results as a minor leaguer. Neu put up fairly good numbers for the A's- for one year- and then fell off the face of the earth. The very same could happen with Shafer or he could have a longer go at it.

    Regardless, Saarloos will not improve the Reds rotation but rather improve its depth at mediocrity. Is that worth the potential higher upside you speak of in the player traded. Yes, if Shafer is Mike Neu, but either way Saarloos is not the pitcher the Reds needed to add to the rotation to make any difference in the upcoming season.

  16. #165
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Portland, Or
    Posts
    5,041

    Re: Reds trade for A's pitcher Saarloos

    Let's make some predictions, but let's keep it simple. I don't care about walks, strikeouts, HR's...

    How many innings pitched, quality starts, OPS, and where will his ERA finish (I know, ERA is not that important)?

    Is there a way to bookmark this thread to come back to it in October?

    Here's mine:

    181 innings pitched

    15 quality starts (6+ innings with 3 or fewer earned runs)

    752 OPS

    3.92 ERA
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25