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Thread: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

  1. #61
    Member durl's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    It's disappointing to hear Marty speak this way. I have no problem with him saying things like "Dunn needs to work on cutting back on strikeouts," or "it would be good to see him shorten his swing at times," but to say he's ready to give up on a player is a bit over the line to me.

    I completely agree that it's hard to be Babe Ruth and Tony Gwynn at the same time. The trend seems to be that if you hit for average, you stand a good chance of cutting back on your power. Honestly, I could stand giving up 10 HR a year if it meant increasing his RBI count by 20 and improving his OBP.

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  3. #62
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Marty is conflating legitimate concerns with unrealistic expectations. The point he's making in regards to Dunn not reaching his potential seem fair to me. Are strikeouts the problem? Not really. Does Dunn look about 30 pounds heavier on already big frame? Does to me. Could that potentially be tiring him out and/or making him a less effective fielder. Seems reasonable. Sure, 50/130 is a big stretch -- but the fact that we can see Dunn doing that make a sub .900 OPS all the more frustrating.

    At this point in his career, Dunn is more akin (in terms of run production) to a Carlos Lee than a David Ortiz. We want, if not expect, a regular MVP caliber player and are getting "just" a solid guy. If 5 years from now Homer Bailey is putting up a 4.20 ERA and winning 12-14 games a year, that will be very valuable to the Reds. It doesn't mean we won't be hoping for more.

    After a few years of a plateaued level of production, I think Marty's frustration is reasonable. Does he go a bit too far? I suppose so, but that's his right.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  4. #63
    Member durl's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    I do not agree at all with Marty's opinion here, but I have no problem with his opinion even though I do not agree with it.
    If you disagree, doesn't it mean that you DO have a problem with his opinion?

  5. #64
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    "I am pretty close to giving up on Adam Dunn." No where does he say that he has given up on him.

    I think it's funny at times at how this forum shows a level of hatred towards anyone outside of the forum, who shows a strong opinion on something that is not of the majority here. I do not agree at all with Marty's opinion here, but I have no problem with his opinion even though I do not agree with it.
    try listening to Marty when Dunn K's. Now listen to Marty when one of his favorites (Like Aurilia) GIDP.

    The utter disgust in Marty's voice speaks volumes. Dunn isn't his type of player. Therefore he has little use for him.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  6. #65
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Marty is conflating legitimate concerns with unrealistic expectations. The point he's making in regards to Dunn not reaching his potential seem fair to me. Are strikeouts the problem? Not really. Does Dunn look about 30 pounds heavier on already big frame? Does to me. Could that potentially be tiring him out and/or making him a less effective fielder. Seems reasonable. Sure, 50/130 is a big stretch -- but the fact that we can see Dunn doing that make a sub .900 OPS all the more frustrating.

    At this point in his career, Dunn is more akin (in terms of run production) to a Carlos Lee than a David Ortiz. We want, if not expect, a regular MVP caliber player and are getting "just" a solid guy. If 5 years from now Homer Bailey is putting up a 4.20 ERA and winning 12-14 games a year, that will be very valuable to the Reds. It doesn't mean we won't be hoping for more.

    After a few years of a plateaued level of production, I think Marty's frustration is reasonable. Does he go a bit too far? I suppose so, but that's his right.
    I think Marty's opinion is based on what he see's, day in, day out with Adam Dunn. He is around the ballclub much more than anyone here. I think he probably see's how Dunn goes about his business at the ballpark, and away from it, particularly on the road. I think he see's a guy, who he believes, can be "extra special," and really not wanting to put forth the little extra to be that. I think it frustrates him, just as is does many others. Dunn is very talented. Very capable, and probably is getting by on a lot of very special God given ability and he's happy with doing nothing more. Doesn't make him a bad player, (far from it, and quite productive) but it leaves a lot of us wondering, "What could be?"
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I think Marty's opinion is based on what he see's, day in, day out with Adam Dunn. He is around the ballclub much more than anyone here. I think he probably see's how Dunn goes about his business at the ballpark, and away from it, particularly on the road. I think he see's a guy, who he believes, can be "extra special," and really not wanting to put forth the little extra to be that. I think it frustrates him, just as is does many others. Dunn is very talented. Very capable, and probably is getting by on a lot of very special God given ability and he's happy with doing nothing more. Doesn't make him a bad player, (far from it, and quite productive) but it leaves a lot of us wondering, "What could be?"
    I agree. Marty sees things the rest of us don't because he is around the club everyday 162 games a year. And if you look at Dunn he really hasn't improved on his numbers the past three years.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  8. #67
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    You know, I've typically tried to deflect some of the anti-Marty attitudes that run rampant on this board. Part of it is out of nostalgia for the man I grew up listening to, and who played a large role in me becoming a Reds fan. The other part is that there are times--even to this day--when he shows why he was considered one of the best broadcasters in the game.

    But his comments about Dunn are simply beyond disappointing. I don't think I can recall a player who has been taken to the woodshed as much as Dunn has been. Even if he were traded tomorrow, Dunn would rank amongst the most prolific home run hitters anr run producers this team has ever seen, and yet the only things you hear said about him are those criticisms as to what he DOESN'T do.

    Don't get me wrong, he's far from a perfect player--and no one is arguing that he is. He's got some significant holes in his swing, and his defense is passable at best. But the Pujols and Howard-type players only come around every so often, and if Dunn's greatest sin is that he isn't Albert Pujols, we should all be so lucky to be so blameless.

    Marty has all but given up on Dunn? After reading these comments, I've all but given up on Marty.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  9. #68
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leader View Post
    I posted a thread in the minor league forums a week or two ago about Jay Bruce. It was the Dayton Dragon's Locker room show where they spoke to Jay Bruce via telephone. Bruce said that in the offseason he has worked out with Adam Dunn. He said that they've worked out (then) the past seven weeks and that Adam Dunn is simply a monster in the weight room. Bruce, I believe is around 6'3" 215-220. He's no small kid. He said that Adam Dunn simply has "natural" strength. He said that Dunn wouldn't even have to try and he could outlift most people. Anway, Bruce said that they have been working out together the past 7 weeks, so Adam has been working out and lifting weights. Just thought I'd let everyone know that if they didn't read that thread. It's not like Adam sits around and eats brats all day and watches TV.

    Perhaps Dunn is in shape but is still overweight. I know some of you are scratching your heads at that so let me explain. I haven't had a chance to see him up close and personal (Maybe creek knows ) but I think it's possible that he's too musclebound and the extra weight affects his agility. I think M2 said something similar about Kearns when he was down in AAA a couple of years ago. Does Dunn need to carry all that muscle on his body? He had plenty of power when he was in the minors and when he first came up to the majors and he wasn't as big as he is now. People hear he's carrying 260-270 lbs on him and they automatically think he's a fat tub of goo.
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  10. #69
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    [QUOTE]. He talks about Dunn accomplishing something woy pointed out has only been done 27 times, 12 in the National League. He has no historical knowledge of the game when he makes silly assertions like that, and he raises arguments that casual fans parrot that have no basis in reality.

    QUOTE]

    The trouble with posting a list of how many times a certain feat has been accomplished during the history of baseball is that it does not account for the fact that aspects of the game of baseball have changed dramatically over time. While true that it has happened only 27 times, if I count correctly, it has happened 15 times since 1997. So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year. This certainly should change the perspective on how doable this is. 50/130 nowadays is not the same as 50/130 in other baseball eras. No doubt it remains a difficult task. And saying that AD should put these numbers up on a yearly basis is wishful thinking.

  11. #70
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Perhaps Dunn is in shape but is still overweight. I know some of you are scratching your heads at that so let me explain. I haven't had a chance to see him up close and personal (Maybe creek knows ) but I think it's possible that he's too musclebound and the extra weight affects his agility. I think M2 said something similar about Kearns when he was down in AAA a couple of years ago. Does Dunn need to carry all that muscle on his body? He had plenty of power when he was in the minors and when he first came up to the majors and he wasn't as big as he is now. People hear he's carrying 260-270 lbs on him and they automatically think he's a fat tub of goo.
    The extra muscle and weight will probably affect him down the road, if it hasn't already. I'm not a big fan of excessive weight training for baseball players. Not saying you shouldn't lift, but when it starts messing up your flexibility, I have a problem with it. Not easy on the joints, either.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
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    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year.
    So, approximately .002% of players in a given season put up the numbers you speak of. And, as we now know, a bulk of those years the rampant use of the S-word had a whole heckuva lot to do with the numbers that were put up.

    We're faulting Dunn for not achieving what only .002%, frequently drug-aided players manage to accomplish?
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  13. #72
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    [QUOTE=texasdave;1234580]
    . He talks about Dunn accomplishing something woy pointed out has only been done 27 times, 12 in the National League. He has no historical knowledge of the game when he makes silly assertions like that, and he raises arguments that casual fans parrot that have no basis in reality.

    QUOTE]

    The trouble with posting a list of how many times a certain feat has been accomplished during the history of baseball is that it does not account for the fact that aspects of the game of baseball have changed dramatically over time. While true that it has happened only 27 times, if I count correctly, it has happened 15 times since 1997. So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year. This certainly should change the perspective on how doable this is. 50/130 nowadays is not the same as 50/130 in other baseball eras. No doubt it remains a difficult task. And saying that AD should put these numbers up on a yearly basis is wishful thinking.
    Good point and good post.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  14. #73
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I think Marty's opinion is based on what he see's, day in, day out with Adam Dunn. He is around the ballclub much more than anyone here. I think he probably see's how Dunn goes about his business at the ballpark, and away from it, particularly on the road. I think he see's a guy, who he believes, can be "extra special," and really not wanting to put forth the little extra to be that. I think it frustrates him, just as is does many others. Dunn is very talented. Very capable, and probably is getting by on a lot of very special God given ability and he's happy with doing nothing more. Doesn't make him a bad player, (far from it, and quite productive) but it leaves a lot of us wondering, "What could be?"
    My take on Marty has long been that he makes up his own reality. He "sees" what he wants to see. For me, he's the center of a really sick eat-your-own culture around the team.
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  15. #74
    smells of rich mahogany deltachi8's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    I have thought for a while that the biggest problem Dunn will have playing in Cincinnati is that he is not Pete Rose.

    Maybe I am wrong, but when many Reds fans don't see a player "hustleing like Pete" they assume he just doesn't try hard enough or doesn't care to.

    I cam to the conclusion last year that the best thing for Adam might be to play someplace else. Would not be good for the Reds, but I think it would be better for him.
    Nothing to see here. Please disperse.

  16. #75
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    Re: Q&A with Marty - comments on Dunn, pitching, and playoffs

    [QUOTE=texasdave;1234580]
    . He talks about Dunn accomplishing something woy pointed out has only been done 27 times, 12 in the National League. He has no historical knowledge of the game when he makes silly assertions like that, and he raises arguments that casual fans parrot that have no basis in reality.

    QUOTE]

    The trouble with posting a list of how many times a certain feat has been accomplished during the history of baseball is that it does not account for the fact that aspects of the game of baseball have changed dramatically over time. While true that it has happened only 27 times, if I count correctly, it has happened 15 times since 1997. So over the last ten years it has occurred, on average, 1.5 times a year. This certainly should change the perspective on how doable this is. 50/130 nowadays is not the same as 50/130 in other baseball eras. No doubt it remains a difficult task. And saying that AD should put these numbers up on a yearly basis is wishful thinking.
    Good Point, but still it's a narrow path to throw the corpse on.

    Since the strike there have been 14 players who have had 50/130 years. 7 of them were by Bonds, McGwire and Sosa who are now the poster children for PED's That's 50%, in that same time span 1278 players have had at least "Qualifying At Bat Totals" in the season, the 14 who have 50/130 account for 1.1% of those at bats, kick out 7 for PED's and it's 0.54% of the players.

    Next I expect Marty to let me know how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.
    Last edited by westofyou; 01-30-2007 at 01:10 PM.


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