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Thread: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

  1. #16
    REDSBROWNSBUCKEYES
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    consider me skeptical, especially on the pitching side. Also without a new CF, the defensive improvements are a total of 1 player.

    The Reds certainly don't have the look of a contender. Their pitching stinks, the defense will be average at best and the offense looks to be nothing special.
    Just like last year right. That didn't turn out so bad. It was alot of fun to watch too.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by 5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM View Post
    Just like last year right. That didn't turn out so bad. It was alot of fun to watch too.
    Not quite like last year. The offense was very good until August.

  4. #18
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I didn't say anything about not scoring runs or having a good offense. Regardless of the type offense, defense, or pitching that you have, it really pays to play good fundamental baseball and not throw away opportunities because you can't execute. For anyone to say otherwise is senseless.
    Well, my post was mainly in reference to those who justify Krivsky's building of the team as a "pitching and defense" team. I was trying to point out that with a 750 run offense, it is darn near impossible to pitch and field well enough to make the playoffs. The Reds needed to ADD better pitching and defense to their offense, not trade one for the other.

  5. #19
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    Well, my post was mainly in reference to those who justify Krivsky's building of the team as a "pitching and defense" team. I was trying to point out that with a 750 run offense, it is darn near impossible to pitch and field well enough to make the playoffs. The Reds needed to ADD better pitching and defense to their offense, not trade one for the other.
    But, the Padres performed the "darned near impossible" when they made the playoffs while scoring a mere 731 runs. The Astros just missed the playoffs by 1.5 games while scoring 735 runs.

    I'm not saying I'm advocating a team that does not score runs. However, the Reds have been scoring tons of runs in recent seasons, and they still have lost lots of games and not made the playoffs. They need to change direction and start the difficult task of building a stronger foundation of defense and pitching. If I have to watch a team lose, I'd rather not watch a team that beats itself with errors and poor fundamental play.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  6. #20
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball View Post
    But, the Padres performed the "darned near impossible" when they made the playoffs while scoring a mere 731 runs. The Astros just missed the playoffs by 1.5 games while scoring 735 runs.

    I'm not saying I'm advocating a team that does not score runs. However, the Reds have been scoring tons of runs in recent seasons, and they still have lost lots of games and not made the playoffs. They need to change direction and start the difficult task of building a stronger foundation of defense and pitching. If I have to watch a team lose, I'd rather not watch a team that beats itself with errors and poor fundamental play.
    These are the steps of a team that flat-out refuses to spend money for starting pitching for whatever reason:

    1) Recruit a plethora of has-beens, trying to catch lightning in a bottle.
    2) Build the bullpen.
    3) Build the defense.

    Has-beens, BP arms and "defensive" players have one thing in common: They are cheaper than starting pitching.

    Here's an idea...spend some money instead of trading your hitting to get relievers. Spend some money on starting pitching rather than signing over the hill relievers and shortstops who can't hit.

  7. #21
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    This is a bit off topic, but I'd like some opinions on Brandon Phillips. He seems to my untrained eye to have emense natural talent. What (other than experience) is it going to take for this guy to be our stud #2 hitter/great D
    2nd baseman.... Can it happen?

  8. #22
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    Yeah, you have to have talented players, but I don't see a thing wrong with wanting to see your team execute better and to do the lttle things that it takes to win ballgames. I don't know why it is necessary to be "snarky" every time Krivsky or Narron say that they want their teams to execute and play smart baseball. I don't want to see a talented bonehead team that just throws away games because they can't execute. Playing smart baseball is not a bad thing.
    My post was not intended to be "snarKy" at all. (Just My Humble Opinion)Pitching, Defense and Offense all play a part in winning games.

    It's hard to win games when you score 820 runs and allow 900 runs. It's even harder to blame the offense for those loses.
    Last edited by Ron Madden; 02-03-2007 at 03:07 AM. Reason: My spelling stinks.

  9. #23
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong View Post
    We all want the team to execute and play smart baseball. (Though we might differ on what that acutally means.) However, I have been hearing Narron say that for his entire tenure and not seen a lick of improvement along those lines. I want a billion dollars, Jessica Beal, and Jessica Alba. Simply stating what I'd like isn't going to make it happen.

    You either have to obtain those type of players or train them.

    It doesn't look good on the training part. I see no discernable uptick in the overall team "baseball smarts" during Narron's tenure. I guess we might see a bit this year, but to date I just haven't seen it.

    Have we obtained players that will significantly enhance our chances to win? I'd argue that Gonzalez was a reasonable stab at that. Other than that, thats pretty bare as well.

    When Krivsky and/or Narron are attaching a "plays the right way" tag to a player that doesn't have enough talent to make any difference to begin with those phrases begin to lose their meaning coming out of their mouths. As you stated above you have to have talented players. I think you's agree that you could have a little league team with flawless execution and a genious level of baseball smarts and they aren't going to win at the MLB level.



    Who does? On the flipside, nobody wants to see a team that executes perfectly and loses 100 games either. I think teaching your players a system ("the Reds way" or "the right way") is the correct way to go about things. I guess the catch 22 is do you get the talent first and train them yourself, or do you seek players that already have the talent and know-how. The Reds can't afford very many of those guys.

    IMO one of the large problems the Reds have had in recent years is that they don't have a manager who "manages the right way" or "does the little things" to help the team win. IMO Narron mismanages his resources very badly. He doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed. (Granted he hasn't had a complete team to work with either)

    GL

  10. #24
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    It's hard to win games when you score 820 runs and allow 900 runs. It's even harder to blame the offense for those loses.
    Exactamundo.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  11. #25
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    My post was not intended to be "snarKy" at all. (Just My Humble Opinion)Pitching, Defense and Offense all play a part in winning games.

    It's hard to win games when you score 820 runs and allow 900 runs. It's even harder to blame the offense for those loses.
    It isn't when most of them are playing defense.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  12. #26
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    It isn't when most of them are playing defense.
    While I agree that having good defensive players, especially up the middle, is optimum, the early run A's are proof that you can win a lot of ballgames with very good pitching and a bunch of stone-gloved mashers in the field.

  13. #27
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    These are the steps of a team that flat-out refuses to spend money for starting pitching for whatever reason:
    Hmmm...and that money would have been spent on whom??? Zito? Meche? Weaver? Marquis? Ortiz?

    I don't believe the Reds refused to spend the money on starting pitching. There simply was not a pitcher worth the money that was spent.


    Has-beens, BP arms and "defensive" players have one thing in common: They are cheaper than starting pitching.
    Excellent point.

    Here's an idea...spend some money instead of trading your hitting to get relievers. Spend some money on starting pitching rather than signing over the hill relievers and shortstops who can't hit.
    Hey, see Eric Milton, Russ Ortiz, Matt Clement, Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano, Chan Ho Park...It isn't the answer...It's just a whine.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  14. #28
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball View Post
    Hmmm...and that money would have been spent on whom??? Zito? Meche? Weaver? Marquis? Ortiz?

    I don't believe the Reds refused to spend the money on starting pitching. There simply was not a pitcher worth the money that was spent.
    Given their history, I have to believe that they refuse to spend money on starters until they do spend money on starters. I know Cincy doesn't have the glitz and glamour of LA or NY but in a lot of cases, money talks.

    Sorry...the cost of a legit starter has gone through the roof and next year we could all be here saying the same thing. What if top tiers cost over $15 million and mid tier btw $8-11 mil again? WK will start the bidding at $3 million and see what he can get at the garage sales. Don't forget...Homer hopefully replaces Milton next opening day. Who replaces Lohse and Saarloos/Santos?

  15. #29
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by 5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM View Post
    Just like last year right. That didn't turn out so bad. It was alot of fun to watch too.
    Our offense was pretty good last year, at least until Wayne traded half of it away for complete garbage.

    The "play the right way" stuff is empty rhetoric, a snow job trying to cover up the fact that they've done nothing to improve the team in the offseason.

  16. #30
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, defense enhanced this spring

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    Yeah, you have to have talented players, but I don't see a thing wrong with wanting to see your team execute better and to do the lttle things that it takes to win ballgames. I don't know why it is necessary to be "snarky" every time Krivsky or Narron say that they want their teams to execute and play smart baseball.
    I've heard it preached and preached and preached and preached.

    Still waiting for it to actually be done.


    Maybe this is the year? Maybe..?


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