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Thread: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

  1. #16
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    And I'd say you're wrong. Despite your feelings about the return on the trade, or the the supposed value of Kearns & Lopez, the Reds can still acquire players without the payroll drag created by a player who makes 11 million dollars a year and who will pitch as poorly as Eric Milton. The Royals OTOH, are going to be giving roughly 15-20% of their payroll over the next 5 years to a player who simply isn't going to be able to contribute. That is way more damaging IMO.
    The problem for Krivsky's is that "The Trade" is another in a long list of under-trading and completely missed opportunities by those who came before him. Off the cuff, it started with Denny Nagle for Drew Henson, et al. Then came Todd Walker for Josh Thigpen and Tony Blanco. Aaron Boone for Pile O'Cash. Gabe White for Morrow Cash. Paul Wilson not traded. Junior trade scrambled by ownership. Sean Casey plus money for Dave Williams. The list goes on and on and on...

    None of these preceeding trades are Krivsky's fault, but they did leave him at a disadvantage. He had to make better moves than his predecessors to be successful. He had make premium use of the few resources he had. "The Trade" was just more of business as usual.

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  3. #17
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    And I'd say you're wrong. Despite your feelings about the return on the trade, or the the supposed value of Kearns & Lopez, the Reds can still acquire players without the payroll drag created by a player who makes 11 million dollars a year and who will pitch as poorly as Eric Milton. The Royals OTOH, are going to be giving roughly 15-20% of their payroll over the next 5 years to a player who simply isn't going to be able to contribute. That is way more damaging IMO.
    I agree 100%.

    If guys like Weathers or Stanton suck we are only on the hook for a small amount of time. Meche will suck and the Royals will have their own version of Milton.

    Small market teams need to give out the fat long term deals only to the very best players. Even these can sour ( ie Griffey ).
    .

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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    It doesn't matter how long you are on the job when you give Gil Meche a $55 million dollar contract. If Krivsky had done that any patience I have left would have evaporated.

    Giving Gil Meche that contract is quite a bit more debilitating than anything Krivsky has done.

    I'm not sure KC giving John Bale a 2 year 4 Million contract was a good idea either, unless he really got his act together in Japan.
    That argument assumes he wasn't simply doing what his boss (ownership) told him to do.

    I actually think O'Brien got more grief than he deserved because:

    1. alot of the worst moves under his watch (contracts to Milton, Casey, LaRue, Wilson) were him simply doiing what he was told.

    2. I also think alot of the moves he didn't make were the result of ownership not letting him pull the trigger.

    I'm not arguing he was a great GM, I'm just suggesting we probably don't really know enough to accurately judge his performance.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    That argument assumes he wasn't simply doing what his boss (ownership) told him to do.

    I actually think O'Brien got more grief than he deserved because:

    1. alot of the worst moves under his watch (contracts to Milton, Casey, LaRue, Wilson) were him simply doiing what he was told.

    2. I also think alot of the moves he didn't make were the result of ownership not letting him pull the trigger.

    I'm not arguing he was a great GM, I'm just suggesting we probably don't really know enough to accurately judge his performance.

    sadly, after what happened this off season, the Milton contract doesn't look that bad.
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    sadly, after what happened this off season, the Milton contract doesn't look that bad.

    It just looks bad because he sticks out like a sore thumb when he gives up those homeruns.
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  7. #21
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    That argument assumes he wasn't simply doing what his boss (ownership) told him to do.

    I actually think O'Brien got more grief than he deserved because:

    1. alot of the worst moves under his watch (contracts to Milton, Casey, LaRue, Wilson) were him simply doiing what he was told.

    2. I also think alot of the moves he didn't make were the result of ownership not letting him pull the trigger.

    I'm not arguing he was a great GM, I'm just suggesting we probably don't really know enough to accurately judge his performance.

    A GM is supposed to be in charge of these decisions. If not given the authority to make them, he should tell his boss to take the job and "put it elsewhere". Being spineless is not an excuse, just as "just following orders" isn't an excuse for war criminals.
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    A GM is supposed to be in charge of these decisions.

    I'm not sure there are many organisations in the big leagues where the GM has absolute control over those things. All GMs have to work within the confines of ownership-imposed limits.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    And I'd say you're wrong. Despite your feelings about the return on the trade, or the the supposed value of Kearns & Lopez, the Reds can still acquire players without the payroll drag created by a player who makes 11 million dollars a year and who will pitch as poorly as Eric Milton. The Royals OTOH, are going to be giving roughly 15-20% of their payroll over the next 5 years to a player who simply isn't going to be able to contribute. That is way more damaging IMO.

    That's the big point of contention between us.

    I think cash is a lot easier to replace than talent. Especially with all the cable money falling from the sky this past season (and possibly next season, if DirecTV has their way).

    The Reds would be damaged a lot worse by another Kearns/Lopez fiasco than by another Milton contract.
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    The problem for Krivsky's is that "The Trade" is another in a long list of under-trading and completely missed opportunities by those who came before him. Off the cuff, it started with Denny Nagle for Drew Henson, et al. Then came Todd Walker for Josh Thigpen and Tony Blanco. Aaron Boone for Pile O'Cash. Gabe White for Morrow Cash. Paul Wilson not traded. Junior trade scrambled by ownership. Sean Casey plus money for Dave Williams. The list goes on and on and on...

    None of these preceeding trades are Krivsky's fault, but they did leave him at a disadvantage. He had to make better moves than his predecessors to be successful. He had make premium use of the few resources he had. "The Trade" was just more of business as usual.
    Trading Neagle netted us (eventually) Arroyo.

    Getting out from most of Casey's contract was a great move, only getting Williams was the bad part. But we made out much better than the Pirates did on that one.

    The rest of them were missed opportunities to be sure, but none of those traded really amounted to much afterwards.

  11. #25
    Member Red Heeler's Avatar
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Trading Neagle netted us (eventually) Arroyo.

    Getting out from most of Casey's contract was a great move, only getting Williams was the bad part. But we made out much better than the Pirates did on that one.

    The rest of them were missed opportunities to be sure, but none of those traded really amounted to much afterwards.
    Neagle straight up for Arroyo would have been a bad trade. Neagle was the best starter on the market that year. He should have brought back the types of packages that folks want for Arroyo now. The fact that there were several years of non-production in between makes it worse.

    Casey still had value as a player at the time of the trade. Only a freak injury made it turn out bad for the Pirates. If he had stayed healthy all year, it would have looked like the fleecing it was.

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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    Neagle straight up for Arroyo would have been a bad trade. Neagle was the best starter on the market that year. He should have brought back the types of packages that folks want for Arroyo now. The fact that there were several years of non-production in between makes it worse.

    Casey still had value as a player at the time of the trade. Only a freak injury made it turn out bad for the Pirates. If he had stayed healthy all year, it would have looked like the fleecing it was.
    I can't agree with either statement.

    We were trading 2 months of Neagle, and got back 3 years of Arroyo at a bargain price. We also had 3 years of Pena. Neagle did nothing since the trade. When you trade a known commodity for 4 players, if one turns out as good as the one you traded (but at a reduced cost), it's a great trade.

    Casey at average production wasn't worth anywhere close to his salary. We paid Hatteberg about $1.5M and he (along with his platoon) produced above average Casey numbers. Simply giving Casey away would have been a good trade. Casey, at $8.5M, had little to no trade value, except for another overpaid player.

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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Casey at average production wasn't worth anywhere close to his salary. We paid Hatteberg about $1.5M and he (along with his platoon) produced above average Casey numbers. Simply giving Casey away would have been a good trade. Casey, at $8.5M, had little to no trade value, except for another overpaid player.
    Right, but we sent $2M to Pittsburgh in the deal and took on $1.5M in salary for Williams, who was so completely pathetic that we wrote him off.

    So if you look at it as $3.5 for Casey and Williams, plus probably $1M for Hatteberg, that's really only a savings of $4M, most of which was plowed into poop futures (Womack, White, Hammond).

  14. #28
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's not the world's worst move.... Bazardo is a marginal prospect at best-basically he has flamed out to become a fringe minor leaguer projected for middle relief due to a dramatic loss of velocity (forget about him ever hitting 97 mph again). He could probably be useful sometime this year but we're not talking huge difference maker useful-he's basically struggling to redefine himself. He's nice depth to have in AAA...think of him as a guy for the AAAA shuttle. In this case the guy might be more useful than a few fodder monkeys clogging the Ms 40 man roster. Bottom line though, the Ms have middle relief arms that are ahead of him in the holding tank. But then again.....JJ Putz was fodder on everyone;s depth charts a few years ago too (don't count on Bazardo being that guy though).....

    Buffoon is a little strong on this one....Bazardo is the type of minor league arm thats not that hard to come by....
    What's great is that a lot of guy's would have just finished College at his age, where he finished up a fine stint in AA.
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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    What's great is that a lot of guy's would have just finished College at his age, where he finished up a fine stint in AA.
    But so too have a lot of other guys that would also have just finished college if they hadn't just finished their stints in AA....and they have much more upside.... Bazardo's skill set is no longer unique given the loss of velocity (funny thing that testing business)...he's destined for the bullpen at best....

    This isn't the move that's going to define Bavasi....its a minor blip.... Bazardo is no longer a very interesting arm....definitely he is no longer a true prospect.... in fact, since you have to add waiver pickups to your 40-man for a year, its not the no-brainer that people will grab him up that some might think.... I wouldn't be surprised if Bazardo goes unclaimed.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Bill "the Buffoon" Bavasi pulls another bonehead move

    It shouldn't matter, as the Rays need arms like his (post surgery) in the pen. He'll be a Ray, IMO, and their team will be the better for it. League average reliever for peanuts.

    Krivsky could do worse. (And has.)


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