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Thread: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

  1. #46
    Member forfreelin04's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    I want a GM who is willing to do what is necessary to make the Reds a year in and year out playoff contender. So what if the 2007 Reds win 80+ games, it will be a fluke. It sure seems like WK has spent a lot of time and money scrounging for at best, a few marginal wins, which will have no impact on building for the future.

    I want to see the Reds in the playoffs. There are only two finishes, in the playoffs and out of the playoffs.
    I don't understand you want them to win "now" in this instance then two posts later you say you want to see them put into a position to win "later."

    It sounds like you just want it all and you want it now.

    The fact of the matter is Wayne K got us Bronson for the Red Sox's now fourth outfielder. DanO got us Bubba Bong and Dave Williams for Sean Casey. Nuff said.


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  3. #47
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Pete Rose or Buddy Bell?
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

  4. #48
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    I may be mistaken but wasn't Wayne aboard when we almost won the division last year? His second season hasnt even started yet. Everyone wants to complain about the old guys.... who else is gonna play here? If you dont have money to spend you can't overpay for top notch free agents. (CUBS) Plus, if you have players that no one wants, you can't trade for young prospects.

  5. #49
    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    That wasn't a shot, it's just too soon to evaluate the overall job.

    I think he WILL be better than Dan O'brien, but don't know yet.
    Definitely, but I took the question to mean right now, through the first year. I've seen a team improve the bottom line (wins) regardless of how anyone feels about the process of doing so.

    Just taking year 1 of both, I really see no comparison.

    Obviously, O'Brien did pretty well at the top of the drafts, but that's only part of the job.

  6. #50
    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Playoff contender only becuase the rest of the league was atrocious. If you took the 80-82 record and put it in either of Danos years the Reds would have finished 20 back (05) and 25 back (04) of the division, and 11 back in 04 of the WC and 9 back in 05.
    Oh, I realize that, but it really doesn't matter to me. This team improved in the last year, and there is a case to be made that the Cardinals won a few less games in part because the Reds were better.

    I feel safe in saying that if DanO was still here, Ross, Phillips, and Arroyo would not. I also feel safe in saying Kearns, Wily Mo, and LaRue would be here, and I'll take the former.

  7. #51
    Baseball card addict MrCinatit's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by NC Reds View Post
    I think Krivsky is a disaster. His plan, if that is what it can be called, seems to be to collect aging veterans. I fear we will devolve into the KC Royals and Dunn will be our Carlos Beltran (jettisoned rather than built around). I hope I am wrong. I am still bitter that he got so thoroughly hosed trading Kearns and Lopez (admittedly two players I liked a lot).
    DanO was horrible, but he did not deplete the young talent on the 40 man roster.
    Actually, I disagree with this point.
    In 2004, we were graced with the likes of Castro, Cruz and White - along with such greats as Darren Bragg, John Vander Wal, Corky Miller, Jermaine Clark, Jason Romano, Cory Lidle, Phil Norton, Todd Jones, Todd Van Poppel, Mike Mathews, Jung Bong, Jimmy Haynes, Jesus Sanchez, Juan Padilla, and Aaron Myette. These were just the vets, discounting the likes of Hummel, Riedling, et al who were much younger - but still struggled.
    2005? Try Aurillia, Joe Randa, Jacob Cruz, Aaron Holbert, Luis Lopez, Kenny Kelly, Ramon Ortiz, Randy Keisler, Jason Standridge, Rickey Stone, Ben Weber, Allan Simpson, and Chris Booker.
    Does that make Wayne better with the likes of Clayton, Castro, Hollandsworth, White, Franklyn, Williams (oops, bought in by Dan) and a billion others in a cast of characters? No - but it seems that with our budget, the roster is always going to be filled with such veteran fodder. However, I am sure the same is true for all teams.
    Would I take Wayne over Dan0? I would for now. For now.

  8. #52
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Wayne or Dan-O doesn't seem like a fair choice.... I wonder what Dan-o would look like without Allen/Lindner pulling the strings....
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #53
    Bullpen or whatever RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    None of the above...My vote is John Schuerholz

    I think many on here have stated, "at least give Wayne a full year...He at least has a plan...He is much better than DanO..." We are almost at that year mark and I am not sure we are any better today then we would have been with DanO as the GM.
    The only real upgrade Wayne's managed, IMO, is Arroyo. Phillips is decent, but we already had a good 2B in Lopez and we just didn't realize it. Ross has made Wayne look good, but I'm not sure how long that's going to last.

    Compared with DanO, I say it's a dead heat in at least a few areas:

    Both had a serious blunder (Milton, 'The Trade') that will hamstring the team for several offseasons. Both were roundly ridiculed by the league (and reviled on this site) for that blunder.

    Both had some sort of success in the draft, but not overall success. That is, DanO did well with the high profile picks (Bailey, Bruce, Wood) but didn't ever acquire much depth; Wayne has been the opposite with poor high picks (Stubbs, Watson) and some surprisingly good results from the lower rounds (Valaika, Loo). Granted, it's actually a bit early to assess the drafts for either GM since we're so few years out.

    Their main differences lie in management style.

    DanO was a 'slow-paced, don't rock the boat' type and Wayne seems like a 'my way or the highway' type. I'm not sure that either of these is what the Reds really need. 'Slow-paced, don't rock the boat' guys don't get much done (except be Yes men for stingy owners) and 'my way or the highway' types tend to piss people off (Barton, Almaraz) and burn bridges.

    The thing that is especially bad about Wayne (and potentially more damaging than any quality DanO had) is that he seems to lack discipline and foresight. If you are a 'my way or the highway' GM--and some of the best (Beane comes to mind) are definitely that--than you have to also really be a calculating, measured, savvy kind of player. Wayne supposedly is 'hard-working' but he also seems to be impatient and reckless, which is not something that a club with limited resources can afford.

    Wayne's way might be more exciting, but it's also potentially more damaging.
    Last edited by RedEye; 02-05-2007 at 07:17 PM.
    “Every level he goes to, he is going to compete. They will know who he is at every level he goes to.” -- ED on EDLC

  10. #54
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    A) That's pretty optimistic take on Lecure. BA ranked him 12th while admitting the Reds have a thin system. That's C prospect territory. I hope he does well, but I haven't seen him highly touted by any scouting pub/site.
    Baseball America also had James Avery ranked 14th in our system.... While I like what they do for the most part, sometimes they completely baffle me when they do things like that. Lecure throws 88-91 with his FB, has a pretty good slider and a decent change up. He is a control guy, but he will star the season at 22 (turns 23 in May) at AA after a season where he held opposing hitters to a .667 OPS against.
    B) Never assume Dan O'Brien would have successfully done anything. Two-plus years of watching him be a rolling disaster should have taught us all that lesson.
    While I can almost agree with that, Loo signed for I believe $15,000 more than he was offered last season. In such a weak year for a draft, I would imagine they would pony up the money for someone like Loo.
    C) Elizardo Ramirez was always an inch away from a brutal beating and he finally got it. Javon Moran does nothing for me, no power, no arm, supposedly poor defensive instincts, won't take a walk. Chris Dickerson can hit just about .100 lower and still get on base more often, with some pop and defense to boot.
    Ramirez pitched fine for a while. He was 23 last season and had an ERA under 4.50 into August. Say what you want about him, but he was quite effective and valuable for the Reds last season.
    D) Points to Krivsky to being willing to trade his fringe prospects, but let's be honest, the Twins were dumping Lohse and Castro and Krivsky's ties there probably made those deals more than the "quality" of the prospects involved.
    Im not saying the two were premiere prospects, although I do like what Ward brings to the table quite a bit, they surely would have helped bolster the system as far as depth and talent goes.
    E) In which system wouldn't you expect the bulk of the top prospects to be from the 2004 and 2005 drafts? I suppose one with a lot of AAA and AA talents, but that's not the Reds. Also, BA holds on the overall farm system rankings until March and I'll be surprised if the Reds crack the top 15. The ranking you're referring to encapsulates the majors and the organization as well.
    I see your point here, but I also think saying Dano had bad drafts is not completely accurate. I think he has more than just "the big three" to hang his hat on still.

  11. #55
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Both had some sort of success in the draft, but not overall success. That is, DanO did well with the high profile picks (Bailey, Bruce, Wood) but didn't ever acquire much depth; Wayne has been the opposite with poor high picks (Stubbs, Watson) and some surprisingly good results from the lower rounds (Valaika, Loo). Granted, it's actually a bit early to assess the drafts for either GM since we're so few years out.
    Milton Loo was a Dan Obrien draft pick from both 2004 and 2005. He was a draft and follow pick, and the Reds signed him after Obrien left, but only had the rights to him due to Obrien.

  12. #56
    Bullpen or whatever RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Milton Loo was a Dan Obrien draft pick from both 2004 and 2005. He was a draft and follow pick, and the Reds signed him after Obrien left, but only had the rights to him due to Obrien.
    Thanks for the correction.
    “Every level he goes to, he is going to compete. They will know who he is at every level he goes to.” -- ED on EDLC

  13. #57
    Member pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    but we already had a good 2B in Lopez and we just didn't realize it. .
    that remains to be seen. it would have been worth giving it a shot before dumping him though.
    School's out. What did you expect?

  14. #58
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by guttle11 View Post
    Definitely, but I took the question to mean right now, through the first year. I've seen a team improve the bottom line (wins) regardless of how anyone feels about the process of doing so.

    Just taking year 1 of both, I really see no comparison.

    Obviously, O'Brien did pretty well at the top of the drafts, but that's only part of the job.
    If that's the case, then I would say overall, right now, Krivsky has done better.

  15. #59
    Smells Like Teen Spirit jmcclain19's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Dan O'Brien getting credit for a solid draft in 2004 just makes my stomach churn.

    2004 was a disaster - and I've posted before that the Brewers likely saved the Reds from themselves and took Mark Rogers instead of Bailey. The next six picks after Bailey have been total bombs (outside the slim hope that Paul Janish turns into a late inning defensive replacement some day). Bailey's success will make everyone try to shine up that turd into a DanO back pat. But that was luck. Plain & simple.

  16. #60
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Re: Dan O'Brien or Wayne Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcclain19 View Post
    Dan O'Brien getting credit for a solid draft in 2004 just makes my stomach churn.

    2004 was a disaster - and I've posted before that the Brewers likely saved the Reds from themselves and took Mark Rogers instead of Bailey. The next six picks after Bailey have been total bombs (outside the slim hope that Paul Janish turns into a late inning defensive replacement some day). Bailey's success will make everyone try to shine up that turd into a DanO back pat. But that was luck. Plain & simple.
    I don't disagree with the last part but from what I have seen from past drafts (all teams) if you can get one really good pick right every year you are doing really really well. It looks like DanO did that.
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    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.


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