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    Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    As Season Approaches, Some Topics Should Be Off Limits
    By MURRAY CHASS
    Things I don’t want to read or hear about anymore:

    ¶Roger Clemens saying he hasn’t decided if he will play this year or retire, and if he decides to play, which team he will play for.

    Clemens is one of the greatest pitchers ever, the greatest of his era. They could put him in the Hall of Fame today and I’d have no problem with it. But let him walk into the sunset quietly. Let him pitch batting practice to his minor league son all day, every day, if he wants, but let him remain quiet on the subject of his major league future.

    “Clemens revealed very little about his future,” a news report from Florida said last week, “except to confirm he’ll be spending quite a bit of time at Osceola County Stadium in the next month or so.”

    The report quoted Clemens as saying: “I’m not thinking anything. Hopefully until May this will be the last time I have to address it.”

    But it won’t be. Every time Clemens appears in public, a reporter will ask him if he has decided what he wants to do, pitch or retire. And if the answer is pitch, will it be for the Astros, the Red Sox or the Yankees?

    Ever since Clemens’s agents, the Hendricks brothers, engineered his trade from the Blue Jays to the Yankees in 1999, Clemens’s status has consumed more newspaper space and television and radio time than that of any other pitcher. Enough already.

    Last year, Clemens created a bad precedent for baseball, calling his own shots on when he would start pitching and what days he would honor his team with his presence, belying the concept of baseball as a team sport.

    When Alex Rodriguez was a free agent six years ago, the Mets accused him of wanting them to create a 24-and-1 plan, one way for 24 players and another way for the 25th, Rodriguez. It wasn’t true then, but it has become so with Clemens. It’s good for Clemens, bad for baseball.

    ¶People saying the Yankees aren’t being fair to Bernie Williams.

    No one, not Clemens, not Nolan Ryan, not Julio Franco, plays forever. Williams isn’t exempt from that reality. If he were still one of the Yankees’ three best outfielders, or a more productive hitter than Jason Giambi, or a first baseman, he would be in Tampa, Fla., preparing for his 17th season with the Yankees.

    But he is none of those things, so the Yankees don’t have a spot for him. They are moving on. Williams should do the same. If he wants to continue playing, he should have his agent, Scott Boras, find him a job with another team.

    If Williams can’t face the prospect of playing for another team, he should graciously retire and accept that he has had a great, if not a Hall of Fame, career.

    ¶Players like Curt Schilling, Mariano Rivera and Andruw Jones saying they will be free agents after the 2007 season.

    Could they wait until we get there? Do they know how many players have made similar preseason proclamations and wound up re-enlisting with their teams before they could become free agents?

    If players think their threats are going to panic their teams into giving them the contract extensions they want, they haven’t been paying attention.

    ¶Players saying that if they’re not signed to new contracts by the start of the season, they won’t sign during the season.

    It’s an empty threat. Rare is the player who turns down a lavish offer in May or June. Oh, five years, $75 million, you say? Well, all right. I could do that.

    ¶Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter no longer going to dinner together or having sleepovers.

    The declining relationship between the guys who play the left side of the Yankees’ infield has not prevented the team from winning the division championship in their three seasons together.

    The Yankees haven’t won the World Series, but they didn’t win it in the three years before Rodriguez arrived either.

    Many precedents exist for teams being successful despite internal turmoil, which the Rodriguez-Jeter relationship doesn’t even rise to.

    The Oakland Athletics won three successive World Series (1972-74) with a clubhouse loaded with ill feeling among players. The Yankees won the World Series in 1977 and ’78 after Reggie Jackson said it was he, and not Thurman Munson, who was the straw that stirred the drink.

    I fear that some observers of the Yankees’ scene will not let the Rodriguez-Jeter relationship rest. They will find it an occasional easy story to write, the way reporters in another section of their newspapers write about Britney Spears.

    But the social interaction between Rodriguez and Jeter is irrelevant and immaterial.

    ¶Statistics mongers promoting VORP and other new-age baseball statistics.

    I receive a daily e-mail message from Baseball Prospectus, an electronic publication filled with articles and information about statistics, mostly statistics that only stats mongers can love.

    To me, VORP epitomized the new-age nonsense. For the longest time, I had no idea what VORP meant and didn’t care enough to go to any great lengths to find out. I asked some colleagues whose work I respect, and they didn’t know what it meant either.

    Finally, not long ago, I came across VORP spelled out. It stands for value over replacement player. How thrilling. How absurd. Value over replacement player. Don’t ask what it means. I don’t know.

    I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, that’s their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fans’ enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein.

    People play baseball. Numbers don’t.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/sp...gewanted=print
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    So now onto Reds topics that should be off-limits for at least a month or two:

    1) Marty and Dunn - Give it a rest huh?! Maybe the new and improved Adam will change Marty's impression... or not.
    2) Dunn to 1st - Been there, done that. It was bad, real bad.
    3) Dumb trade proposals - Yeah I know someone out there thinks the Astros will trade us Oswalt for Deno, Paul Wilson and Rheal Cormier, just let that thought percolate for a couple of months okay?
    4) Stats Wars - Look, I'm a statistician by training and profession, BUT the pissing match over Dunn versus Casey using stats the average fan doesn't know or care about was ridiculous.
    5) Fire Jerry Now - Ain't gonna happen, let it rest for a couple months.

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    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalls View Post
    So now onto Reds topics that should be off-limits for at least a month or two:

    1) Marty and Dunn - Give it a rest huh?! Maybe the new and improved Adam will change Marty's impression... or not.
    I'm sure Marty would like nothing more than to have Adam Dunn prove him wrong...

    2) Dunn to 1st - Been there, done that. It was bad, real bad.
    If he can't catch a ball in the outfield, fans shouldn't expect him to make a routine play in the infield

    3) Dumb trade proposals - Yeah I know someone out there thinks the Astros will trade us Oswalt for Deno, Paul Wilson and Rheal Cormier, just let that thought percolate for a couple of months okay?
    This ain't fantasy ball, folks...

    4) Stats Wars - Look, I'm a statistician by training and profession, BUT the pissing match over Dunn versus Casey using stats the average fan doesn't know or care about was ridiculous.
    Stats can be mind numbing....

    5) Fire Jerry Now - Ain't gonna happen, let it rest for a couple months.
    Bob Boone rules.
    Last edited by Matt700wlw; 02-27-2007 at 03:11 PM.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    To me, VORP epitomized the new-age nonsense. For the longest time, I had no idea what VORP meant and didn’t care enough to go to any great lengths to find out.
    This is written by a man who is obviously committed to doing his job well.

    I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, that’s their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fans’ enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein.

    People play baseball. Numbers don’t.
    Yeah, and numbers don't tell us anything at all about the game. And another thing, we should never learn anything new about the game that could enhance our enjoyment of it. That would just be ridiculous.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    ¶Statistics mongers promoting VORP and other new-age baseball statistics.

    I receive a daily e-mail message from Baseball Prospectus, an electronic publication filled with articles and information about statistics, mostly statistics that only stats mongers can love.

    To me, VORP epitomized the new-age nonsense. For the longest time, I had no idea what VORP meant and didn’t care enough to go to any great lengths to find out. I asked some colleagues whose work I respect, and they didn’t know what it meant either.

    Finally, not long ago, I came across VORP spelled out. It stands for value over replacement player. How thrilling. How absurd. Value over replacement player. Don’t ask what it means. I don’t know.

    I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, that’s their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fans’ enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein.

    People play baseball. Numbers don’t.
    Murray has no idea what he just started.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Murray has no idea what he just started.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    To me, VORP epitomized the new-age nonsense. For the longest time, I had no idea what VORP meant and didn’t care enough to go to any great lengths to find out. I asked some colleagues whose work I respect, and they didn’t know what it meant either.

    Finally, not long ago, I came across VORP spelled out. It stands for value over replacement player. How thrilling. How absurd. Value over replacement player. Don’t ask what it means. I don’t know.
    It's much, much easier to make fun of something than to actually learn about it. At least he admitted he has no interest in learning anything new about the game he covers.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    It's much, much easier to make fun of something than to actually learn about it. At least he admitted he has no interest in learning anything new about the game he covers.
    Good thing he's a sportswriter and not someone who actually needs to know what he's talking about.
    Wear gaudy colors, or avoid display. Lay a million eggs or give birth to one. The fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live. Be like your ancestors or be different. We must repeat!

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Statistics mongers promoting VORP and other new-age baseball statistics.

    I receive a daily e-mail message from Baseball Prospectus, an electronic publication filled with articles and information about statistics, mostly statistics that only stats mongers can love.

    To me, VORP epitomized the new-age nonsense. For the longest time, I had no idea what VORP meant and didn’t care enough to go to any great lengths to find out. I asked some colleagues whose work I respect, and they didn’t know what it meant either.

    Finally, not long ago, I came across VORP spelled out. It stands for value over replacement player. How thrilling. How absurd. Value over replacement player. Don’t ask what it means. I don’t know.

    I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, that’s their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fans’ enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein.

    People play baseball. Numbers don’t.
    Well, yes, this is probably a can of worms, but it's the heart of my frustration with what I regularly call "the alphabet soup" of stats. Many of us have said this, but it is a game played by human beings. Too often, some of this data is given a predetermination that overlooks that human element. Peope rising above their past, overcoming adversity and limitations that adds to the beauty of this game.

    Sometimes that's for one season (or even a part of a season), and sometimes it's the precursor of an emerging talent. Sometimes washed up players have one more moment of glory within them. They beat the odds or you find that overlooked jewel.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    Sometimes that's for one season (or even a part of a season), and sometimes it's the precursor of an emerging talent. Sometimes washed up players have one more moment of glory within them. They beat the odds or you find that overlooked jewel.
    I think most people would agree with you on that. I know I would. The problem is banking on those washed up players having one more moment of glory as a key to your team's success. When it happens, it's a nice bonus and you should roll with it. Just don't bet the house on it happening.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    [QUOTE=BRM;1250420]I think most people would agree with you on that. I know I would. The problem is banking on those washed up players having one more moment of glory as a key to your team's success. When it happens, it's a nice bonus and you should roll with it. Just don't bet the house on it happening.[/QUOTE


    But isn't the "washed up player" or the "emerging talent" doing something great what is really fun about this game. It makes us feel good about the game, it's what gives us hope for our team, its what keeps us coming back to see something else exciting and unexpected? Case in point, wouldn't we all love to see JR have a 1990's kind of year? Not just for what it would do for the club in the standings but how we would feel about it? Isn't that more fun & doesn't that make us want to go to the ballpark the next night to see what he might do next more than seeing the allstar caliber player playing at the level we expect him to. For the small % of the people who truly understand the game seeing a Derek Jeter play is a pleasure but for the other 99% of the baseball fans, they want to see something special happening that sets a player apart. IMO
    Last edited by Triples; 02-27-2007 at 11:12 AM. Reason: grammer

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    I agree. I don't recall saying or reading anything to the contrary.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triples View Post
    But isn't the "washed up player" or the "emerging talent" doing something great what is really fun about this game. It makes us feel good about the game, it's what gives us hope for our team, its what keeps us coming back to see something else exciting and unexpected? Case in point, wouldn't we all love to see JR have a 1990's kind of year? Not just for what it would do for the club in the standings but how we would feel about it? Isn't that more fun & doesn't that make us want to go to the ballpark the next night to see what he might do next more than seeing the allstar caliber player playing at the level we expect him to. For the small % of the people who truly understand the game seeing a Derek Jeter play is a pleasure but for the other 99% of the baseball fans, they want to see something special happening that sets a player apart. IMO
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see any of that being in the slightest conflict with being a "stats guy." I lap up statistical analysis when playing armchair GM. And then the game starts and I root for the Reds.

    As for what fans enjoy, everyone's different. Junior staying healthy and going off for a 40/120 season would be a huge story, one everyone would enjoy, not to mention making us a better ballclub. I also think that "all-star caliber players playing at the level we expect them to" describes the Big Red Machine pretty well, and we were OK with that too.
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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see any of that being in the slightest conflict with being a "stats guy." I lap up statistical analysis when playing armchair GM. And then the game starts and I root for the Reds.
    Oh but there is a conflict. When some folks call others stupid or out-of-touch because they cannot quote the latest PECOTA numbers or care what VORP is, then that is a conflict.

    Seems to me that most of these "new stats" were invented by or for the fantasy team players.....as a way to better evaluate INDIVIDUAL player value when the context of the team was removed (because in fantasy leagues, you can have a Red and a Red Sox and a Blue Jay playing right next to each other).

    That, in and of itself would be fine if that is where the stats and their users were left. But on this board as in other places where baseball fat is chewed, these stats are often used to bludgeon those who has no interest in them.

    In other words, it is no longer acceptable to just say, "I like this pitcher." If you do, you probably will face attack from the stat police.

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    Re: Topics that should be off limits (M. Chass-NYT)

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see any of that being in the slightest conflict with being a "stats guy." I lap up statistical analysis when playing armchair GM. And then the game starts and I root for the Reds.

    As for what fans enjoy, everyone's different. Junior staying healthy and going off for a 40/120 season would be a huge story, one everyone would enjoy, not to mention making us a better ballclub. I also think that "all-star caliber players playing at the level we expect them to" describes the Big Red Machine pretty well, and we were OK with that too.
    Island Red:

    We're actually closer to agreement than you might think. I too like many of the stats...at least those that I can actually understand. I also believe that they have a place in the game. I can recall when I got my first cell phone in 1984. My boss thought I had lost my mind. 3 years later he had one and you couldn't pry it out of his cold dead hands. Its called progress, but at the same time, cell phone can also be a detriment if used improperly (ever been in a meeting when one goes off and its owner actually answers the call???) Same goes for stats. Sometimes I think they get taken too far.

    With respect to my earlier comment about the importance of the feel good stories; what I'm trying to say is its those kinds of instances that bring humanness (if that is a real word) into the sport which seems to be trying to become less human. Those folks who care little about stats feast on those kinds of stories and even some of the educated baseball people like them too (look at the all the attention Josh Hamilton is getting on this website alone). We all love the comeback kid/rags to riches or what ever you want to call those kinds of stories. Those emotions are what make sports, sports (baseball or otherwise). Its why we still remember the Big Red Machine. And its why there is a color commentator in the booth with the play by play guy.

    In a nut shell my point was/is that the emotional part of the game, to the average fan, is as important or more important that stats. I'm not deriding stats or people who enjoy them or make a living analyzing them.
    Last edited by Triples; 02-27-2007 at 02:21 PM. Reason: wrong name


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