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Thread: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

  1. #16
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    How do you say a guy is having a pedestrian spring after 3 games?
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  3. #17
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    How do you say a guy is having a pedestrian spring after 3 games?
    you probably don't notice the flowers in the spring or the songbirds either....
    Last edited by jojo; 03-04-2007 at 08:19 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #18
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I want to see Hamilton succeed, in a big way, but you have to remember that most of the pitchers are throwing a lot of fastballs right now, just trying to get their arms going. The hitters are always far ahead of the pitchers at this point. When they start mixing in their breaking pitches and changing speeds is when we all will see how much the layoff has hurt Josh Hamilton. It is great to see that he is making solid contact and driving the ball to all fields. I am much happier to see that than if he were pulling the ball all the time. That tells me that he is making adjustments and gives me a lot of hope that he can do the same when they start mixing it up.

    It's a great story and I wish him the very best and hope he makes it the story of the year.

    Brantley commented the most impressive thing he saw with Hamilton was that he went the other way yesterday with some LH reliever's offspeed pitch that Hamilton slapped to left for a line drive single. Yeah I wanna see for myself and Im not expecting him to bat .300, would be happy if he plays solid OF defense and can show some Willie Mo type power in spots...things I think this kid can do easily. Now if he gets to the majors and strikes more than Dunn and has no clue in the field then it was still a good story this spring and go ahead and try to work out a trade with the Marlins because they will probably not want him back anyway if he sucks in the majors.

  5. #19
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    you probably don't notice the flowers in the spring or the songbirds either....
    .
    Last edited by RANDY IN INDY; 03-04-2007 at 08:41 AM.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  6. #20
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    My bad, jojo! I get it now.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  7. #21
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    .
    There was just a hint of sarcasm in the original post you referred too....


    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #22
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    My bad, jojo! I get it now.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  9. #23
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat



    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  10. #24
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Absofreakinlutely...
    “I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else.”-Earl Weaver

    It's spring. Baseball is around the corner. Hope fills the air. Life is good.
    Last edited by Spitball; 03-04-2007 at 09:26 AM.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  11. #25
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC View Post
    I want to see Hamilton succeed, in a big way, but you have to remember that most of the pitchers are throwing a lot of fastballs right now, just trying to get their arms going. The hitters are always far ahead of the pitchers at this point. When they start mixing in their breaking pitches and changing speeds is when we all will see how much the layoff has hurt Josh Hamilton. It is great to see that he is making solid contact and driving the ball to all fields. I am much happier to see that than if he were pulling the ball all the time. That tells me that he is making adjustments and gives me a lot of hope that he can do the same when they start mixing it up.

    It's a great story and I wish him the very best and hope he makes it the story of the year.



    Yep. He's a compelling story, right out of Hollywood if it goes best case scenario.

    But we're a long way from that point. It sure is fun to watch.

    Thank God they're playing games again.

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  12. #26
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Absofreakinlutely concerning Livingston...... And Saarloos has 4 quality pitches while working on a fifth? I guess the first requisite of a quality pitch in my mind, is that it can be thrown for strikes. The second requisite is that it can be used to induce outs. There isn't much evidence that Saarloos has one quality pitch IMHO. He may look nasty but his K/BB rate hasn't been over 1 since 2003. He gets groundballs... so really rather than having 4 quality pitches, he crosses his fingers alot.

    Concerning Hamilton. He's a geat personal interest story but really he's having a pedestrian spring compared to Dunn (.667/.750/2.000), Freel (.800./.833/1.200), Hatteberg (.600/.600/1.400), Phillips (.500/.500/1.500) and Keppinger (.750/.750/1.125). This spring suggests the Reds are on track to score 1458 runs this season while only giving up 486. That suggests they'll have a record of 146-16. Yes...that's 146 wins....an all time record! I'd be less enthusiastic if the sample size wasn't so large. I'm thinking that will make them dark horses for the world series? Wow...and people want to talk about Josh Hamilton? I understand that his 12 at bats last week completely trump the 1060 in low minors where he only had an OPS of .807 or the 89 at bats he had in AA ball where he went .180/.221/.236. It's so obvious. But even so, what are his realistic chances of making a club that is going to win 146 games?
    Agree on Saarloos. Raving about his movement is nice and all, but if his movement is out of the zone, it won't fool hitters into chasing it unless it is real hard stuff. He doesn't throw hard enough for his type of movement to be successful IMO. For a guy like him success comes when he has movement inside the strike zone. That forces guys to swing and either miss or make poor contact. Seeing how his strike-out to walk rates worsened as he moved up the competition ladder (dramatically fewer K's and more walks), I have to think his movement is frequently out of the zone and hitters are laying off. That would put the pitcher in a position of laying one in there to get the needed strike. Seeing Saarloos high home run rate even though he's is a ground ball pitcher is also evidence of this occurring.

    We'll have to see if the story that these numbers tell is true or if Saarloos gets more command of his movement and can keep it in the zone. I'm not real high on him but am a little more optimistic than when he was acquired. The Reds could do worse in the 5 spot but I don't want to expose Belisle or Ramirez to waivers to keep Saarlos around. The Reds need to move a few bodies to protect the guys who could fill cheap back-end or swing man roles in the upcoming years where contention seems like a real possibility.

    As for Hamilton, I keep him no matter what. If the Devil Rays won't agree to make him the PTBNL, I keep him around. To me he's a lefty Wily Mo Pena with defensive ability and baseball skills. I do what it takes to make him Reds property and keep him clean. I have to think that if the D-Rays see that they aren't going to get him back anyway, they may make him the PTBNL to avoid giving up another player. The Reds could then send him down and develop him. The Reds just need to not weaken in this area. Acquiring that type of talent is worth the investment of the 25th spot if that remains necessary. He might be a real productive bat by 2009 or so which is when this team really projects to move up into the upper echelon IMO.

  13. #27
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    I disagree with mth on Saarloos. I don't know what it is, but I have a strong feeling that Kirk Saarloos is going to have a good 2007 season with the Reds. There is just something I like about the guy. His movement on his pitches is very good, which is always a good thing. You mentioned his movement as a downside because he only throws 88, but Arroyo doesn't throw much harder than that and he was able to succeed last season.

    I just think with the addition of Gonzalez at SS and Encarnacion at 3B and Phillips at 2B, opposing teams are going to have a hard time pounding groundballs through the Reds infield. You add in the league change and the weaker lineups in the NL and I think that's a recipe for success. I'm not saying Saarloos is gonna win the Cy Young or anything but 170 innings of 4.25 ERA ball is not out of the question. I don't know about you but I would gladly take that out of my fifth starter.

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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I have to chime in on Livingston....the guy makes Joe Mays look like a fireballer. He tops out at about 86 MPH. I just cant see him being a very productive MLB pitcher when he cant even get to the high 80s with his fastball.
    THere are lots of very productive LH starters who's fastball tops out in this range.

    Now, whether Livingston is one of them is another matter entirely.

  15. #29
    part of BBN jmac's Avatar
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post

    As for Hamilton, I keep him no matter what. If the Devil Rays won't agree to make him the PTBNL, I keep him around. To me he's a lefty Wily Mo Pena with defensive ability and baseball skills. I do what it takes to make him Reds property and keep him clean. Acquiring that type of talent is worth the investment of the 25th spot if that remains necessary.
    Couldnt have said it beter myself. The kid has too much potential to lose.
    Not based on what he has done in 3 games but rather what he was projected to be and "possibly" still can be. He is a Wily Mo in "situation" only. I rather think more as you said in "ability" and "skills" he has definitely a far far greater up-side.
    He may go 0-12 in the next 3 games but the potential is truly too much to lose.

  16. #30
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    Re: Has WayneK pulled another rabbit out of the hat

    To add to the Hamilton conversation, remember that last season the Reds went with 12 pitchers and 3 catchers for much of the season and kept the next-to-useless Quinton McCracken on the roster as the 25th man (until DFA'd). Even if completely lost and overwhelmed, Hamilton can easily replicate that level of play, and he has upside.

    Best case scenario is that the Rays let the Reds keep him as the aforementioned PTBNL in the Harris deal...that way the Reds can get him the PAs he will need to get up to speed. It would probably be what is best for the kid, and the Rays aren't going to get anything for him anyway as the Reds would likely keep him at the big league level to retain him, so they should agree (may as well) to do what is best for the kid. They have NO obligation whatsoever to do so, but it is still what I would like to see.

    Hamilton looked lost at the IS game on Wednesday on a couple of breaking pitches and a change, but was able to draw a walk in one AB and looked much better adjusted in the next day's game which I also attended. I'm not a scout, so take my observation with a sizeable grain of salt.


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