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Thread: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

  1. #31
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966 View Post
    Looking at last season's numbers...

    * The REDS had twelve guys start a game.
    > ERA: Milton had the 5th best.
    > WHIP: Milton had the 4th best.
    > Wins: Milton had the 3rd most.

    I am not a betting man and I know that it is a common thing to drill Mr. Milton into the ground here, but I am not sure it is a mortal lock that any pitcher on the current roster can put up better numbers. I know of at least 7 starters on last year's roster that didn't. Unless we are talking about a different set of numbers than the ones that I reference above...
    I know for a fact that I am basing my opinions on the starting five and bullpen arms on what I am seeing this spring. Milton's last start put some definite fear into my eyes. Belisle's last start showed me something I haven't seen from him in awhile. Livingston continues to go out and throw up zero's. It should be about who is getting the job done this year, not based on last year and $$$

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  3. #32
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Stuff wise what is the difference between the current manifestation of Milton and Livingston?
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  4. #33
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Here is the view on Livingston from the past few years:

    A few years ago we invited a lefty to the PG World Showcase in Ft Myers, FL. A good friend and former scout had told us “this kid’s pretty good”. The young pitcher had an advisor (Terry Bross) who also told us about his ability. Well, Terry is a good baseball man who played in the Big Leagues, so we invited the lefty, Bobby Livingston, even though we had never seen him pitch.

    At the World Showcase we saw all we needed to see. Bobby was an athletic looking lefty with a silky smooth arm action. Oh yea, he also threw 90 mph with outstanding command of three pitches. We wrote in our report, “Bobby Livingston should be a high draft pick and he may become a major league star”.

    We later invited Livingston to the PG National Predraft. He did not throw quite as hard at the Predraft, but it was the same Bobby with a bit less velocity. Once again we wrote pretty much the exact same report. This was a very special lefty, one of the very best. He had a good live fastball, but more than that he was one of the best finesse type lefties (college or high school) we had ever seen. Jeremy Sowers, a year later, would be another in that same class.

    Livingston did have some reported makeup issues, but we liked him a lot and that was a major league left arm. Being from West Texas (Lubbock) he didn’t get much attention from anyone other than us. If anything, we went overboard trying to get people to understand just how special we thought this kid was.

    About 3 years later:

    Livingston is off to a great start this spring for the Seattle Mariners high A club in the California League. Last night he won his 5th game without a loss. He has a 1.33 ERA, pitching in 47.1 innings, giving up only 32 hits and 6 walks with 38 strike outs. That’s the Bobby Livingston we remember. That’s the Bobby Livingston we plan to see in the Big Leagues one of these days.

    The above comes from the perfect game website

    Livingston still has the same stuff and that nice fluid motion from what I can see. Another bonus is that he is healthier than Milton, much has been written about Milton's knee condition that often flares up at points during the season. I like Livingston he can throw harder if he chooses but he feels his ball has less movement as a result.

  5. #34
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    Stuff wise what is the difference between the current manifestation of Milton and Livingston?
    better offspeed pitches for Livingston. Milton is an ex-power pitcher whose offspeed stuff was not nearly good enough to make the transition to finesse pitcher.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

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    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Belisle finished with a flourish, tore up winter ball, and has done nothing this spring to diminish those accomplishments.

    If not for the huge dollar amount owed Milton, no manager/GM in their right mind would choose him over Belisle.

    I say money be damned. Make a bold decision, show us that poor performance will no longer be tolerated.

    The best way to change a culture of losing is to lop off the heads of the offending parties. Offer them no quarter in Cincinnati.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    What's the story with Seattle? Why did they give up on him?

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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    It's almost a mortal lock that ANY PITCHER on this current roster could put up numbers better than Eric Milton.
    Last year as bad as Eric Milton was his numbers as a starter were better than
    Lohse's and Michalak's numbers as starters.
    Milton was better than Claussen's, Rameriz', Kim's, Germano's, Joe Mays and Dave Williams numbers.

    Roughly every starting pitcher not named Harang and Arroryo.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  9. #38
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    Last year as bad as Eric Milton was his numbers as a starter were better than
    Lohse's and Michalak's numbers as starters.
    Milton was better than Claussen's, Rameriz', Kim's, Germano's, Joe Mays and Dave Williams numbers.

    Roughly every starting pitcher not named Harang and Arroryo.
    That's all well and good, but I'd bet anything that Belisle would easily overtake Milton if given the chance.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    That's all well and good, but I'd bet anything that Belisle would easily overtake Milton if given the chance.

    Would his back and his stuff hold up for 6 months? If so it'd be a first for him...

  11. #40
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    Belisle finished with a flourish, tore up winter ball, and has done nothing this spring to diminish those accomplishments.
    Well, that is certinally proof positive that his chronic back issues are healed and he's poised to put up mid 4' ERA and related periferal numbers, over the course of an entire season.

    BTW, I like the "lop off there head" and "no quarter" stuff. Zelda or Led Zeppelin IV ?
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 03-13-2007 at 08:33 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  12. #41
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Well, that is certinally proof positive that his chronic back issues are healed and he's poised to put up mid 4' ERA and related periferal numbers, over the course of an entire season.

    BTW, I like the "lop off there head" and "no quarter" stuff. Zelda or Led Zeppelin IV ?

    Milton won't finish the season healthy either. The knee's always going to give him problems, and now arm troubles are starting to crop up. Never mind the fact that when he takes the mound he's an absolute gas can.

    He's given up 93 HR in his last three seasons, posting ERA's of 4.75, 6.47, and 5.19. Last season, he only logged 152 IP.

    Back problems or not, I'll take my chances on Belisle being able to log at least 150 innings, while putting up better numbers. In 134 IP for the Reds, Matt Belisle has an ERA of 4.22, with 17 HR allowed. Not that his .792 OPS allowed over that span is any great shakes, but he does keep the ball in the park compared to Milton.

    My main point is that ridding themselves of Milton is the grandest example of addition by subtraction. Big contract or not, the guy's been significantly below average (to put it mildly) for quite some time now, and it would be worth it to the Reds to stop the bleeding at a time when they really seem to be turning the corner towards respectability.

    Simply put, Eric Milton is hindering the club's growth.

    Btw....I'm pretty sure "No Quarter" was on Houses of the Holy.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  13. #42
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    Milton won't finish the season healthy either. The knee's always going to give him problems, and now arm troubles are starting to crop up.

    Back problems or not, I'll take my chances on Belisle being able to log at least 150 innings, while putting up better numbers. In 134 IP for the Reds, Matt Belisle has an ERA of 4.22, with 17 HR allowed. Not that his .792 OPS allowed over that span is any great shakes, but he does keep the ball in the park compared to Milton.

    My main point is that ridding themselves of Milton is the grandest example of addition by subtraction. Big contract or not, the guy's been significantly below average (to put it mildly) for quite some time now, and it would be worth it to the Reds to stop the bleeding at a time when they really seem to be turning the corner towards respectability.

    Btw....I'm pretty sure "No Quarter" was on Houses of the Holy.
    That's a good point about Miltons arm and knee. You are right that he'll probably be on the DL again at some point.

    But Belisle has 134 innings over two years. So he's going to go from an average of 67 IP to 150 in one season, with a history of back issues? Not very realistic.

    So when Belisle craps out who steps in then? Livingston? Jarred? Salmon? And which one of those guys will continue to produce at mid 4's ERA's or better?

    I'd love for them to pick up a bonefide #3 guy they could plug in. That would be great and then I'd say Eric can have an $8.5 million vacation. But without someone who we can count on to produce at a better level it makes no sense to send him packing. I know it's trendy to blast Milton and suggest anyone could be better, and that's just not realistic. And if you send Milton packing, and you get the same (or godforbid worse) production what have you acomplished other than molifying the mob?

    BTW - I know No Quarter was on HOTH. I was ribbing you because that post was very colorfull and had lots of dungens and dragons immagry in it. You know, kinda like lots of Zep songs. (Jokes never seem funny when you have to explain them to people.)
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  14. #43
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    That's all well and good, but I'd bet anything that Belisle would easily overtake Milton if given the chance.
    A healthy Belisie? So would I.

    I'm not trying to get into a pissing match. The post I responded to said any pitcher in camp would outpitch Milton. Paul Wilson? maybe, but not a sure thing. The Lizard...well, he could but I'm not sure he will. Santos? Now, you're just rolling dice.

    Miltie isn't worth the money. Ok. In today's free agent market, Milton probably represents value. Yes, I know how sick that sounds, but go look at the free agent class that he was in... Matt Clement, Jared Wright, Chris Bensen.....Bensen probably ended up being the best of them, but Milton is actually 2 or 3 on the list. And things have just gotten more expensive since then. That's just scary and a cautionary tale about the "value" of free agent pitching.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  15. #44
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: C.Trent Thinks 22 (including Hamilton) Are Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    That's a good point about Miltons arm and knee. You are right that he'll probably be on the DL again at some point.

    But Belisle has 134 innings over two years. So he's going to go from an average of 67 IP to 150 in one season, with a history of back issues? Not very realistic.

    So when Belisle craps out who steps in then? Livingston? Jarred? Salmon? And which one of those guys will continue to produce at mid 4's ERA's or better?

    I'd love for them to pick up a bonefide #3 guy they could plug in. That would be great and then I'd say Eric can have an $8.5 million vacation. But without someone who we can count on to produce at a better level it makes no sense to send him packing. I know it's trendy to blast Milton and suggest anyone could be better, and that's just not realistic. And if you send Milton packing, and you get the same (or godforbid worse) production what have you acomplished other than molifying the mob?

    BTW - I know No Quarter was on HOTH. I was ribbing you because that post was very colorfull and had lots of dungens and dragons immagry in it. You know, kinda like lots of Zep songs. (Jokes never seem funny when you have to explain them to people.)
    Maybe I just want as many remnants of DanO's regime gone as soon as possible.

    Listening to spring training games, hearing the names Paul Wilson, Eric Milton, Andy Machado et al just elicits the gnashing of my teeth.

    Yes, I am a member of the mob, and I want to be mullified.

    I demand appeasement, dad gummit!

    And yes, I know you were kidding about the Zeppelin comment, thank you for noticing my imagery....No one else ever does.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn


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