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Thread: Ouch....very ouch

  1. #31
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    The only time I can remember Krivsky being criticized this season for skewing the pitching market was when he was throwing enormous sums of money at Mike Stanton and David Weathers. Is that really off base?

    I believe he was criticized also for the Alex Gonzalez signing. In which someone, unnamed IIRC, said that they were driving up the price. Considering the way things unfolded in the FA market, I have my doubts.

    Here's the link and quote.
    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=5742

    So far, Wayne Krivsky's not making friends. "He's signing guys no one wants and pushing the bar up." I can't print the rest of the quote from an NL official.
    Last edited by rdiersin; 03-21-2007 at 12:35 PM. Reason: For link and quote

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  3. #32
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    The only time I can remember Krivsky being criticized this season for skewing the pitching market was when he was throwing enormous sums of money at Mike Stanton and David Weathers. Is that really off base?
    IIRC, he was criticized for signing Arroyo to the extension, by some. The Harang deal was well received by most.

    I do agree with you re: the relievers, but then again, relief pitching is more expensive these days than it's ever been.

  4. #33
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    My sleeper little-to-no-chance team (e.g. a team I don't much like though they'll be considered a serious contender) is the Tigers.
    M2 - interesting. I'm curious as to what you don't like about the Tigers.
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  5. #34
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    I do agree with you re: the relievers, but then again, relief pitching is more expensive these days than it's ever been.
    Which in large part is Krivsky's fault for overpaying atrociously for mediocre talent both in free agency and trade.

  6. #35
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    We'll show we don't belong in that group by winning the division
    Go Gators!

  7. #36
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    Which in large part is Krivsky's fault for overpaying atrociously for mediocre talent both in free agency and trade.
    I pretty sure Krivsky is not alone in "overpaying atrociously" for mediocre talent. It goes on throughout baseball.

    One man's mediocre talent is another man's necessity for middle relief pitching.

    I'm not totally sold on Krivsky's skills as a GM yet, but I have to disagree with you if you're implying that the astronomical cost of non-closer relief pitching is "in large part" his fault.

    He's one of 30 GM's. Regardless of whether you and I agree that Cormier, Stanton and Weathers are not worth what they are getting paid, there is probably another team out there who would have paid for them, if not the exact amount that WK ponied up, then something close to it.

    Alex Rodriguez signed a $250 million, 10 year contract in 2000. He's being grossly overpaid by any definition, and yet no one has signed a contract that big since then, have they?
    Last edited by Always Red; 03-21-2007 at 01:55 PM.

  8. #37
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Harang and Arroyo as anchors at the front of this rotation are the reason that Verducci is so off the reservation by including them in that list. No, I don't think the Reds will win the division, but do I think they could surprise me and make a run? Sure. And mostly because of the horses at the top. If those two come through again, it is a nice head start on competence...
    The key will be what happens when Harang and Arroyo aren't pitching.

    We've got a couple young guys in the bullpen with potential to step up, but it's far from a sure thing. Lohse and Milton are more likely to be disasters than solid contributors. Sarloos has a chance to be a decent innings eater (I liked that move, even if it doesn't pan out).

    The offense is weak. If Jr is hurt or Dunn is slumping, we are really going to struggle to score runs. I'm not saying that it's a given that Dunn will slump or Jr will get hurt, but it shows how shallow the offense is.

    It's hard to play above .500 ball with a weak offense and shaky pen, even if you do have two solid starting pitchers. Not impossible, but difficult.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  9. #38
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    I pretty sure Krivsky is not alone in "overpaying atrociously" for mediocre talent. It goes on throughout baseball.

    One man's mediocre talent is another man's necessity for middle relief pitching.

    I'm not totally sold on Krivsky's skills as a GM yet, but I have to disagree with you if you're implying that the astronomical cost of non-closer relief pitching is
    "in large part" his fault.

    He's one of 30 GM's. Regardless of whether you and I agree that Cormier, Stanton and Weathers are not worth what they are getting paid, there is probably another team out there who would have paid for them, if not the exact amount that WK ponied up, then something close to it.

    Alex Rodriguez signed a $250 million, 10 year contract in 2000. He's being grossly overpaid by any definition, and yet no one has signed a contract that big since then, have they?
    Good post.

    Steve Stone claimed that the Harang contract was driving up the market.
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  10. #39
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by rdiersin View Post
    So far, Wayne Krivsky's not making friends. "He's signing guys no one wants and pushing the bar up." I can't print the rest of the quote from an NL official.
    Can't say I disagree with this assessment of Wayne's offseason. His strategy seemed to be to acquire quanity instead of quality.. much like his frequent attempts to fix the pen last season.

    Other than the Sarloos trade, I'd rather Wayne overpaid for someone good, even if he had to overpay the guy 3 million/year. That would've been better than collecting players no one else wanted. Sure, Toronto was interested in Gonzales because they also had a hole at SS and were desparate like Wayne, but Gonzales wasn't exactly a hot commodity.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  11. #40
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    There is no reason to believe that the Reds will be better than the Cubs this season.

    Unless you bring up the curse.
    Actually, there is no reason to believe the Cubs will be better than the Reds this season unless you believe paying $100,000 for a Ford Pinto will make it more effective than paying $100 for the same car.
    Win the Division

  12. #41
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Well here is nicer press. Dyan Perry calls Reds 1 of 10 teams that could surprise. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6591812

  13. #42
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Buck Martinez on XM has also called the Reds his sleeper team this year.
    Win the Division

  14. #43
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Can't say I disagree with this assessment of Wayne's offseason. His strategy seemed to be to acquire quanity instead of quality.. much like his frequent attempts to fix the pen last season.

    Other than the Sarloos trade, I'd rather Wayne overpaid for someone good, even if he had to overpay the guy 3 million/year. That would've been better than collecting players no one else wanted. Sure, Toronto was interested in Gonzales because they also had a hole at SS and were desparate like Wayne, but Gonzales wasn't exactly a hot commodity.

    Did he overpay for talent? Probably, but the question is whether or not he overpayed with respect to the market, i.e. would those people have gotten similar deals elsewhere. I have a hard time believing in a world where Gil Meche got the contract he got, that those contracts were the ones driving up the prices on the market.

    Gonzalez made 2.7 million last year with the Red Sox, so this year's salary is in line with that, and then it escalates. I find it to be a bit more than what I would like, but it seems reasonably along the lines of other contracts handed out.
    Last edited by rdiersin; 03-21-2007 at 02:13 PM.

  15. #44
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by Cant Touch This View Post
    M2 - interesting. I'm curious as to what you don't like about the Tigers.
    They remind me a lot of the 1986 Royals. I don't like their offense at all. It doesn't find 1B well and I don't expect the power surge from players like Monroe, Thames and Inge to continue. Those guys are all 30 this season and what they did in 2006 smacks of career years rather than as sustainable progress. Beyond that, much of the Tigers' scoring last season was the result of uncanny timing. That won't continue. Texas, greatly due to it's tiny ballpark, has been the only team around able to consistently plate a lot of runs with a generally low OB. Detroit doesn't have the park or the biceps to continue in the vein.

    Rogers and Robertson will probably have more balls find holes this year too. Beyond that, near perfect health rarely repeats itself.

    Everything went right last year, but I think both the offense and pitching are in for slides and Detroit will be hovering in the .500 neighborhood this season. In the AL Central that could land you in 4th place.
    Last edited by M2; 03-21-2007 at 02:24 PM.
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  16. #45
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    Re: Ouch....very ouch

    This has been a very interesting thread with some of the best dialogue I've seen around here. Maybe it comes from someone outside our fandom dissing our team, but folks have made good, but realistic, comments about this clubs chances (and I won't argue with slim - but it's not "no chance"!). Great input, folks!


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