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Thread: Pitching Depth II

  1. #31
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    No 17 million isnt a waste of money for Zambrano... I just think its going to take 20 million to sign him. Just my thinking, but he will command Zito money.

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  3. #32
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No 17 million isnt a waste of money for Zambrano... I just think its going to take 20 million to sign him. Just my thinking, but he will command Zito money.
    On the plus side, though, signing him also gets you a better #8 hitter than David Ross.

    I think the Reds best option to getting a quality #2/#3 starter in the offseason is offering up a package of Dunn and a couple minor leaguers. The FA market just isn't worth the dollars you put into it.
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  4. #33
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    On the plus side, though, signing him also gets you a better #8 hitter than David Ross.

    I think the Reds best option to getting a quality #2/#3 starter in the offseason is offering up a package of Dunn and a couple minor leaguers. The FA market just isn't worth the dollars you put into it.
    Except Dunn can't be traded w/o his permission if the Reds pick-up the option.

    As for Doug's suggestion of $20 Million, I'd still pay it. Deal Freel, Gonzo, Stanton, etc.

    The Reds can not afford to swing and miss. No more $7 or $8 Million/year deals to guys who might be good. Pony-up for some one proven.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  5. #34
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Except Dunn can't be traded w/o his permission if the Reds pick-up the option.

    As for Doug's suggestion of $20 Million, I'd still pay it. Deal Freel, Gonzo, Stanton, etc.

    The Reds can not afford to swing and miss. No more $7 or $8 Million/year deals to guys who might be good. Pony-up for some one proven.
    Freel could probably be dealt. Gonzo doubtful, Stanton not a chance. Ditto Juan Castro. I liken WK's multiyear contracts given to these 30+ year old FAs to someone owing more on their car than it's worth. It makes it really hard to dump the car and have someone else take over your payments.

  6. #35
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    There are a few pitchers at AAA and AA who could be helpful soon. Cueto, Bailey, Maloney, Pelland, Roenicke are the most likely in my view.

    Looking at the lower levels, though, I'm underwhelmed by the pitching lineup. Putting aside the 17 and 18 year old arms that could develop in five years, I don't see the next Bailey or Cueto. Please show me that I am wrong.

    I am also disturbed the the Billings/GCL pitching this year. Am I correct that it has been generally poor?

  7. #36
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Freel could probably be dealt. Gonzo doubtful, Stanton not a chance. Ditto Juan Castro. I liken WK's multiyear contracts given to these 30+ year old FAs to someone owing more on their car than it's worth. It makes it really hard to dump the car and have someone else take over your payments.
    You're right. Hence the criticism of WK in spite of adding some decent talent in Arroyo, Hamilton, Phillips et al.

    Put Stanton on waivers and hope somebody claims him.

    I think some teams might be interested in Gonzalez in the offseason. Maybe not much talent in return, but I think a team with a hole at SS like SF or Toronto might be willing to take him off the Reds hands.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  8. #37
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Gonzalez has been a solid average SS this season. I don't think criticism of that signing is justified.

  9. #38
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Gonzalez has been a solid average SS this season. I don't think criticism of that signing is justified.
    Signed him to a $14 million contract over 3 years. One year of that, so far, will have been spent battling for last place. If the next two end up the way the look like they will, Gonzalez playing in Cincinnati will not have made much of a difference. And that to me is just a waste of money.

    If the FO isn't going to seriously try and win, then they shouldn't be signing people to money like that. $14 million over 3 years isn't "stopgap" money to a team like Cincy.

  10. #39
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Signed him to a $14 million contract over 3 years. One year of that, so far, will have been spent battling for last place. If the next two end up the way the look like they will, Gonzalez playing in Cincinnati will not have made much of a difference. And that to me is just a waste of money.

    If the FO isn't going to seriously try and win, then they shouldn't be signing people to money like that. $14 million over 3 years isn't "stopgap" money to a team like Cincy.
    So, and I ask this out of curiousity, not rhetorically, you would have a team filled young players the Reds control all the way through arbitration and Type-A free agents?

  11. #40
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Except Dunn can't be traded w/o his permission if the Reds pick-up the option.
    You honestly think, given his comments in the paper this week, that he wouldn't leap to be traded anywhere other than Cincinnati -- especially if he was only a year away from Free Agency?

    The only teams Dunn would veto a trade to, at this point, are teams that wouldn't be interested in him anyway.
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  12. #41
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    mth123....keep doing this thread thoughout the years....I like looking at it.
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  13. #42
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    You honestly think, given his comments in the paper this week, that he wouldn't leap to be traded anywhere other than Cincinnati -- especially if he was only a year away from Free Agency?

    The only teams Dunn would veto a trade to, at this point, are teams that wouldn't be interested in him anyway.
    I think he may agree, but that clause in his contract gives him some power and makes it a three cornered negotiation as opposed to a straight trade. Dunn could very well ask for some compensation to agree to a deal on the basis that the $13 Million option figure represented a home town discount. If not, why ask for the clause in the contract?

    I think the situation makes it unlikely that the Reds will get the type of pitching they need from a Dunn trade. The better bet for real help, although I'm not advocating it unless the deal is right, would be to trade a lower dollar guy so money is not as big a factor in the return. EdE (attitude? lack of concentration), Hamilton (health issues and relapse always a possibility) and Phillips (low OBP) all have warts and it wouldn't be a total disaster if any of the three were traded and I think its more likely that the Reds get the pitcher they need for one of them. It would be very risky and I quake at the notion that WK will sell off one of his building blocks for less than equal value.
    Last edited by mth123; 08-05-2007 at 03:47 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #43
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    So, and I ask this out of curiousity, not rhetorically, you would have a team filled young players the Reds control all the way through arbitration and Type-A free agents?
    For the most part. Young guys and cheap players. The only ones making decent money I would target for acquisition would be potential trading chips (i.e., Dotel). The rest of the money would be put into the farm system. I don't think this team will be headed anywhere good for the next few years, so I would be looking to invest payroll elsewhere.

  15. #44
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching Depth II

    I'll post a chart for 2008 after some significant moves occur, but thought this was a good place to post some minor moves.

    As noted elseswhere, the Reds Re-signed Ricky Stone and added Jon Adkins.

    According to BA, the Reds released low minor league pitchers Nicholas Wandless, Adam Pointer, Robbie Nickols and Jose Medina.

    http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=668
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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