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Thread: Guys who need to be pushed

  1. #1
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    Guys who need to be pushed

    Several Reds prospects need to be pushed up a level -- if not immediately, pretty soon.

    I'll skip AAA because I'm not discussing bringing guys to the major leagues. The only real candidates right now are pitchers and I assume that the Reds will make moves when they get sick and tired of some of the current bullpen performances.

    At AA, Medlock needs to be moved to AAA. He had one bad outing early, but now he is lights out, spent a lot of time at AA last year. Don't see what he is accomplishing at AA.

    At High A, there are two obvious guys. Carlos Fisher should be at AA right now. Older prospect for A ball, dominating the league, needs to be pushed. And, of course, Jay Bruce who needs to be moved quickly through the organization because he is a true hitter and should be a Red as early as mid-next season.

    At A ball, Valaika clearly moves to be moved up, as soon as possible. If his fielding needs work, that can be handled at High A ball. I would think this guy could hit at AA right now with no problem so, offensively, is probably two levels too low.

    Less clear is Drew Stubbs, but he seems to be hitting better -- perhaps more like he did at Texas -- and if he keeps it up for a couple of months in low A, given his college player age, I would give him a crack at High A this season.

    Perhaps the Reds want to wait until they draft some replacements in June, but these guys all could be Reds in the next couple of years if they are pushed a bit.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-22-2007 at 06:36 PM.

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Kc, what about Dayton's pitcher today Daryl Thompson? He is 21 years old now in Low A ball. After today's win he is 3-0 with an impressive 0.53 ERA. Is he ready for Sarasota?

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds Freak View Post
    Kc, what about Dayton's pitcher today Daryl Thompson? He is 21 years old now in Low A ball. After today's win he is 3-0 with an impressive 0.53 ERA. Is he ready for Sarasota?
    Guess Thompson is an injury situation, where he is still coming back. So Reds may be holding him back until he proves he is truly healthy. Then they may push him quickly.

    Good point though, from an age point of view, it would be nice to be one level up.

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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Agree with all those KC. MIght add Josh Roenicke but not now. Maybe in a couple months.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Medlock needs to be moved to AAA.
    Yep, he should have started the season in AAA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    Carlos Fisher should be at AA right now.
    Hell no. Sure he just threw 6 shoutout IP, 3 H , 2 BB, 11 K to lower his ERA ot 0.36, but he needs to spend a few months at this level. It's great if he dominates, but skipping levels with starting pitchers, and that's what you're talking about here, is almost always a horrible idea. I'd be willing to do a midseason promo with Fisher, but at least let him do a full tour around the FSL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    Jay Bruce who needs to be moved quickly through the organization because he is a true hitter and should be a Red as early as mid-next season.
    I don't mind him in the FSL. It's a tough hitters league. Bruce is making it look easy, but I'd leave him there until Memorial Day before I put him on the escalator just because the league hasn't posed a problem for him the first few weeks of the season doesn't mean it won't. I also don't know about him being ready by the middle of next season. I'm not opposed to it and it's entirely possible he's as good a hitting prospect as there is in the minors, but as we're seeing with Joey Votto, the game gets harder as you climb the ladder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    Valaika clearly moves to be moved up, as soon as possible.
    I'd put him on the same Memorial Day plan as Bruce. If he's still destroying the ball at that point then move him up. Remember, there's a serious pitching upgrade when you go from the MWL to the FSL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61
    Less clear is Drew Stubbs, but he seems to be hitting better -- perhaps more like he did at Texas -- and if he keeps it up for a couple of months in low A, given his college player age, I would give him a crack at High A this season.
    Sure.

    Though one comment about the concept of "pushing" prospects. They don't conform to your timetable. We've seen that bite the Reds so many times that I've lost count. Baseball is a hard game and progress in it tends to be glacial. It takes years for prospects to mature - physically, mentally and experientally.

    It's not a race. It requires patience and pushing guys often causes a Peter Principle effect, which can ruin the value of the prospects in your system. The Reds have a good number of players off to strong starts. Enjoy it.
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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    See the Mariners for examples of why pushing prospects is a bad idea.

    They've pushed some many prospects right out of the game it's not even funny. And their busy doing it as quick as they can to Jeff Clement & Adam Jones, their two best prospects.

    Guys will tell you when they are ready.

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    I didn't read Kc's use of the word "pushed" to mean let's get these guys to Cincinnati as soon as possible. I read it as these guys are having great success currently and are close to getting the promotion to the next level.

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds Freak View Post
    I didn't read Kc's use of the word "pushed" to mean let's get these guys to Cincinnati as soon as possible. I read it as these guys are having great success currently and are close to getting the promotion to the next level.
    That's right. And I don't object to the "Memorial Day Plan."

    A key point here is the individual situation. Valaika, for example, had a distinguished college career and then killed the ball at Billings. Another organization might have had him at A ball last year and either High A or even AA this year. The Reds have him starting at Dayton this year. Offensively, my guess is that Dayton will prove to be a notch too low.

    Fisher is a converted position player who is 24 years old at High A ball. Sometimes, a player who is a few years older will have maturity that compensates for fewer reps and enables him to move faster. Look at Coutlangus. So if Fisher continues to pitch well at High A, I would move him up to Chatanooga very soon.

    Bruce just seems to be a true, top talent. I have no problem with a couple of months at High A, but you get the feeling he will hit anywhere. I wouldn't say that Votto's early difficulties at AAA necessarily will occur with a guy like Bruce, although it certainly is possible.

    I guess my thinking is that the real top tier guys -- as Josh Hamilton has shown -- should get to the major leagues fairly young. Yes, they will struggle at times -- EE is an example -- but at an early age such a player will become comfortable in the majors and ready to do big things.

    I also see, in Bruce and Valaika, the kind of hitter the Reds ballclub could use. As soon as reasonably possible.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-22-2007 at 11:17 PM.

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    At AA, Medlock needs to be moved to AAA. He had one bad outing early, but now he is lights out, spent a lot of time at AA last year. Don't see what he is accomplishing at AA.
    Doing the same thing David Shafer and Zach Ward did, presumably -- shining bright and putting up sterling numbers in the hopes of luring some team to part with soemthing in order to bring them in.

    Otherwise, I don't see what he has to prove at the AA level.
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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    As a general rule, whenever you think a guy is ready for a midseason promotion, table the idea for a month and then revisit it.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Doing the same thing David Shafer and Zach Ward did, presumably -- shining bright and putting up sterling numbers in the hopes of luring some team to part with soemthing in order to bring them in.

    Otherwise, I don't see what he has to prove at the AA level.
    I think its a numbers thing. With Salmon and the Major league overflow at AAA there would only be a mop up type role available for Medlock. In AA he has a shot to get into some save situations.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  13. #12
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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Like most here have said, patience is the safest road, especially with pitchers. Bruce is the first guy I'd move up. The issue is that really talented guys need that challenge. Witness Hamilton and Bailey. Bruce is the only one who I think may be in that class, but I wouldn't move him tlll midseason.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Anybody heard any news on Milton Loo?

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    Hamilton had not played a level above AA and sat out 4 freaking years! I do belive he is doing okay... People put way too much into the minor league system with players who are studs and I am not talking about pitchers (They do need the work with their various pitches) I am talking positional players. i.e. Jay Bruce, Chris Valaika, Joey Votto, but especially Bruce... I realize that there are not many true talents like Josh Hamilton, but if he can do it after sitting out for 4 years with injuries and drug problems, why shouldn't guys like Bruce and Votto come up and play great... Which brings me to the question of why we signed Hatteberg to a 2 year extension when Votto will be ready to take over the reins by July this season...
    "There is a great man who makes every man feel small. But the real great man is the man who makes every man feel great." G.K Charleston

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    Re: Guys who need to be pushed

    I salivate over a future line-up of 1. Stubbs 2. Hamilton 3. Bruce 4. Encarnacion 5. Votto 6. Phillips 7. Valaika 8. Catcher? That isnt even including any free-agent pick-ups due to Griffey/Dunn/Miltons 30+ millions going off the books which can be spent to lock up our young talent and pick up a few bullpen guys and maybe a very good catcher...
    "There is a great man who makes every man feel small. But the real great man is the man who makes every man feel great." G.K Charleston


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