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Thread: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Are biomechanics the new sabermetrics?

    Interesting read from Slate today:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2164894?nav=tap3

    The links on Matsuzaka and Hansen are also quite interesting. Maybe now there will be other types of Adam Dunn debates on RedsZone... like about how he needs to "keep his head quiet" or how he must "keep his weight back" on pitches.

    Enjoy.
    Last edited by RedEye; 04-26-2007 at 10:02 PM. Reason: changing discussion
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Nothing new here.

    It's been going on for many years.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    Nothing new here.

    It's been going on for many years.
    My thoughts exactly,

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    Nothing new here.

    It's been going on for many years.
    Okay... but has it been going on among the same people? My guess is no... and that it hasn't yet worked it's way into regular baseball parlance. Maybe this is actually something that the 'traditionalists' and the 'sabermetricians' can agree on. Must say, would be nice to hear people like Joe Morgan talk about biomechanics rather than spouting platitudes about 'playing the game the right way.'
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    And Earl Weaver was talking about the value of the 3 run homer 30 years ago. There's a difference between something being done and something becoming mainstream...
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Member harangatang's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Even though it's not new to some it's new to me. I appreciate you posting this. Good read.

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    And Earl Weaver was talking about the value of the 3 run homer 30 years ago. There's a difference between something being done and something becoming mainstream...
    Yes, I know. That's the point I was trying to make.

    I'm not sure why everyone is so dismissive of this article. I'm really into baseball and statistics of course, but biomechanics isn't something I've heard about too often.

    Sure, we all talk vaguely about a players "mechanics" and physiology, but this stuff seems to take it a step further, introducing new terms and a way of talking about and analyzing a player's physical make-up and technique. It seems to me that biomechanics is to old-school mechanics as sabermetrics is to traditional statistics. It's a new way of framing and conceptualizing old insights and bringing them up to date. Sure, curmudgeons can call it "nothing new"... but that's nothing new, either.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Speaking of Curmudgeon's... Seaver is sitting in on the Mets broadcast today and he's telling tales about how Jerry Grote would critique his mechanics via sign language from behind the plate during the game.

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    Member harangatang's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Yes, I know. That's the point I was trying to make.

    I'm not sure why everyone is so dismissive of this article. I'm really into baseball and statistics of course, but biomechanics isn't something I've heard about too often.
    Ego trip?

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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by harangatang View Post
    Ego trip?
    On my part?
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Speaking of Curmudgeon's... Seaver is sitting in on the Mets broadcast today and he's telling tales about how Jerry Grote would critique his mechanics via sign language from behind the plate during the game.
    I'm not talking about mechanics... I'm talking about biomechanics. Maybe there's no difference, but the article seems to suggest there is. I for one am willing to consider it.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Member harangatang's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    On my part?
    Absolutely not. I just can't believe you posted an article of that caliber and the responses that followed. Even if a few people have heard of it, I am sure many on this board haven't. Again thanks for for posting this article I learned something today that some people apparently learned before me.

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I'm not talking about mechanics... I'm talking about biomechanics. Maybe there's no difference, but the article seems to suggest there is. I for one am willing to consider it.
    There is a lot of the same issues in both. Especially when applied to pitching (or being a hockey goalie) it's all about the mechanics for those two professions. Now if we want to look at the growing need of points 4-6 beow then yes it is different. especially now that the cost of players and development are escalating so high.
    Sports biomechanics is the science concerned with the internal and external forces acting on a human body and the effects produced by these forces in sports activities.

    These internal and external forces determine how the parts of a body or the body as a whole move during the performance of motor skill, what is commonly referred to as the performerís technique.
    This can be originally and basically underlaid under the three Newtonís Laws.
    Since the subject of sports biomechanics is the human body, its movement organs, which are characterised by the biological conditions, must be considered. In this way sports biomechanics is applied mechanics interrelated
    with anatomy, physiology, psychology medicine, biochemistry and sports
    techniques.

    The scientific study of sports biomechanics includes:

    1) The study of the mechanical structure and ability of various organs and systems in an athleteís body in relation to special sports events;

    2) the identification of the principles of sports movements, build-up of optimal
    models of individual sports performance and development of effective training methods;

    3) the mechanically reasonable design of sports equipments and instruments;

    4) analysis of the mechanisms of sports injuries and education of people on the ways to prevent these injuries from a biomechanics perspective;

    5) study of the anthropometric features of special sports events together with training practice;

    6) development of biomechanical methodology, especially the quick information feedback method.

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    It's a new way of framing and conceptualizing old insights and bringing them up to date. Sure, curmudgeons can call it "nothing new"... but that's nothing new, either.


    Wow, I'm a curmudgeon!!!

    Cool.

    I wasn't trying to insult you, young feller. Maybe I should have gone into more detail to make sure I didn't hurt your feelings.

    To tell you the truth, I was a little surprised at the approach of the writer, as if it was a new discovery. And I'm more surprised at the number of posters who haven't heard about it.

    So, to recap, which is something we old timers just love to do....

    Uh, what were we talking about?

    Oh yeah, you kids get off my lawn!!!!!
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  16. #15
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Biomechanics are the new sabermetrics

    I wasn't dismissing the article at all. Rather, I think it's interesting that, likely due to new media outlets, new analysis gains attention and credibility so quickly. It's encouraging really. One of the points I enjoyed is that because it's so new and requires medical knowledge, we really have a tough time calling in to question guys like Will Carroll and Carlos Gomez. Not to say that they're wrong. Just that, if they were, how would we know?

    It begs the same sort of skepticism that James faced when most people were much less familiar with rigorous statistical analysis. Once the methods were popularized and vetted publicly, James' work (and that of other sabermatrcians) gained a foothold. Unfortunately, it took quite a bit to convince those people who didn't like, didn't understand, or felt threatened by the math. Of course, many many people are still wary.

    I've wondered about Prior myself. He was supposed to have perfect mechanics. I'd love to see an article about what went wrong that doesn't simply say "Dusty Baker broke him." In the language of biomechanics, what changed? Biomechanical analysis adds a new dimension that should be welcomed in the game. New knowledge is always a good thing. But it shouldn't be taken unquestioned. It should be welcomed with open arms and critical eye.

    Critical simply means asking for everybody to show their work. It doesn't mean skeptical (assuming they're wrong) or worse, dismissive. Critical is a good thing. The more this analysis can be shown to be more than guess work -- to jive with reality as it's currently experienced (ie. pitchers with "good mechanics" actually do pitch better and stay healthy) -- the more quickly it will be adopted.

    Thanks for the link RedEye.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.


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