Josh, Austin and April '07...

[paintmered]

Hmmm, interesting, I always thought it was RF, with less balls being hit there. I guess the stats JoJo posted prove otherwise.

That's the case in little league. Not so much MLB.

[mth123]

Thome has played over 1100 games at first the majority of which occurred in the AL. He has never played an outfield position. The main reasons he is now a DH are two-fold: 1. A fellow named Konerko and, 2. Thome's back issues.

Ortiz doesn't play first because well he's not good enough to play anywhere. Manny also has no business with a glove on his hand. The fact that he stays in left is a testament to some of the DHs he's played along side. Manny is one of the rarer occurrences where he probably could do more damage at first than in left.

The defensive spectrum looks like this:
1b-LF-RF-3B-CF-2b-ss-c

The idea being that the positions are more difficult to play as you go right on the spectrum with positions on the far right considered premium defensive positions (i.e. the pool of players good enough to play them well is relatively smaller as you go right). Therefore players generally move from right to left during their career (i.e. turning a 1b into an outfielder is generally considered an unsound idea).

This is why DH/1b has greater production than ss or C. Positions on the left are easier to play therefore the pool of players capable of playing them is larger so there is a greater chance of finding a better bat.

As with everything, a roster is a cumulative beast of trade offs and compromises. For instance if you have a firstbaseman as stellar as Olerud with the glove, you deal with a less than stellar left fielder.

But in general, if you can't play a passable first base then you either aren't dedicated to the cause or you really have no business putting on a glove.

I get the whole defensive spectrum thing and its a good guideline, but in general its easier to catch a fly ball than to dig a throw out of the dirt. What the stats may not show is that poor play at 1B usually is reflected in the error rate of the rest of the IF or the BABIP of the pitching staff who give up IF hits on ground outs that aren't completed when the throw isn't handled on a close play. A poor LF really only has an impact on balls hit to LF and doesn't have much effect on the other defenders. Obviously the OF requires more range to play well and a slow OF could benefit from a move to 1B (i.e.Griffey) but there is a particular type of player who will do less damage in LF than he would at 1B even though 1B is "easier" from the standpoint of covering ground.

I happen to think that Adam Dunn is one of those players and I shudder at the number of errors we'd see at the 2B, SS and 3B positions with him over there. Simply running the playbook dictated by the defensive spectrum will lead to the wrong decision in some cases. I for one am glad that the Adam Dunn to 1B experiment came to an end prior to any regular season games. The times I've seen him there he's been brutal and does much more harm than when he plays LF.

I agree with the assessment that if you can't play 1B you should probably be a DH, but there is no DH in the NL and this team's top threat needs to be in LF IMO.

[jojo]

I get the whole defensive spectrum thing and its a good guideline, but in general its easier to catch a fly ball than to dig a throw out of the dirt. What the stats may not show is that poor play at 1B usually is reflected in the error rate of the rest of the IF or the BABIP of the pitching staff who give up IF hits on ground outs that aren't completed when the throw isn't handled on a close play. A poor LF really only has an impact on balls hit to LF and doesn't have much effect on the other defenders. Obviously the OF requires more range to play well and a slow OF could benefit from a move to 1B (i.e.Griffey) but there is a particular type of player who will do less damage in LF than he would at 1B even though 1B is "easier" from the standpoint of covering ground.

I happen to think that Adam Dunn is one of those players and I shudder at the number of errors we'd see at the 2B, SS and 3B positions with him over there. Simply running the playbook dictated by the defensive spectrum will lead to the wrong decision in some cases. I for one am glad that the Adam Dunn to 1B experiment came to an end prior to any regular season games. The times I've seen him there he's been brutal and does much more harm than when he plays LF.

I agree with the assessment that if you can't play 1B you should probably be a DH, but there is no DH in the NL and this team's top threat needs to be in LF IMO.

I added the bit about the defensive spectrum to give context to the production data earlier in the thread it wasn't in response to your specific comment per se... I'm trying not to hog the thread

I agree with most of what you say really.... I just think that if Dunn can't play first, it's because he doesn't want too.... that's just my personal opinion though...

[jojo]

It was always my perception that LF was where you stashed the big bats. Maybe I'm biased with Dunn and a guy by the name of Bonds being prominent examples in my mind, but LF is where poor defense will hurt you the least, so you stash your big bopper with porous defense there.

BTW....Bonds wasn't exactly "stashed" in left....it is true that his arm isn't the strongest but he did win 8 gold gloves (pretty much all considered legit) in left during his prime years...

[Marc D]

BTW....Bonds wasn't exactly "stashed" in left....it is true that his arm isn't the strongest but he did win 8 gold gloves (pretty much all considered legit) in left during his prime years...

None of which mattered to Sid Bream in the least.

[Heath]

Remember, if you have Austin Kearns, you don't have Josh Hamilton.

I'd prefer Hamilton's upside than Kearns.

[Redsland]

I think we'd have drafted Josh regardless. He was picked up as a fifth outfielder, after all.

[TeamSelig]

RF is where you stash crappy players in little league (like someone stated previously) because most hitters are RH, and you don't see too many players "hitting the other way" (opposite field). Usually at about the high school level the crappy RFer thing goes away.

Also, I think the better-crappy fielders go to RF because there are alot of line drives and bloop hits that go to RF that are pretty hard to judge while as LF usually just gets liners down the line or pop ups.

[Marc D]

You stick the worst OF in RF in beer leauge softball as well.

[Chip R]

Also note that Kearns shows up in the top ten of all major league right fielders. He quietly had a very solid April for Washington putting up a line of .272/.350/.446 while playing the majority of his April games in a pit for hitters (translates roughly into .289/.369/.486 in GABP)

How would the outfield look with Kearns in right, Hamilton in center and Dunn in left with Freel playing supersub between the OF and 3b?

I think that OF would look great. Unfortunately you still have Ken Griffey, Jr. on this team. Since there are already 2 first basemen and no DHs, and since Kearns is mainly a RFer, you are going to have Jr. in the lineup manning center field. Now Freel doesn't play so much and neither does Josh. It's a nice fantasy but that's all it is.

Being traded to the Nats may have been the best thing to happen to Kearns. Small sample size but he's doing quite well over there. I think expectations were always too high for him over here. He's a Kentucky boy who was a 1st round choice who had all the tools and when was hurt or slumped he became a disappointment to the organization and to the fans who maybe expected too much from him. Now he's somewhere where he doesn't have a lot of expectations. He's not from the organization, he didn't cost much and he's not playing in front of friends and relatives 81 games a year.

[jojo]

You stick the worst OF in RF in beer leauge softball as well.

Yep, and the guy who used to play rightfield takes over at firstbase...

[bounty37h]

What is VORP?

I know this is going to sound meaner then it is meant to be, but it seems like a lot of people worry too much about stats, and less watching the actual player/game anymore....

[paintmered]

I know this is going to sound meaner then it is meant to be, but it seems like a lot of people worry too much about stats, and less watching the actual player/game anymore....

This battle has been fought ad nauseum around here. I think you would be best served using the search function to read the many discussions that have already taken place and draw your conclusions from there.

[TC81190]

Yeah but then the bullpen wouldn't be nearly as good.

Bill Bray baby!

[Yachtzee]

I get the whole defensive spectrum thing and its a good guideline, but in general its easier to catch a fly ball than to dig a throw out of the dirt. What the stats may not show is that poor play at 1B usually is reflected in the error rate of the rest of the IF or the BABIP of the pitching staff who give up IF hits on ground outs that aren't completed when the throw isn't handled on a close play. A poor LF really only has an impact on balls hit to LF and doesn't have much effect on the other defenders. Obviously the OF requires more range to play well and a slow OF could benefit from a move to 1B (i.e.Griffey) but there is a particular type of player who will do less damage in LF than he would at 1B even though 1B is "easier" from the standpoint of covering ground.

I happen to think that Adam Dunn is one of those players and I shudder at the number of errors we'd see at the 2B, SS and 3B positions with him over there. Simply running the playbook dictated by the defensive spectrum will lead to the wrong decision in some cases. I for one am glad that the Adam Dunn to 1B experiment came to an end prior to any regular season games. The times I've seen him there he's been brutal and does much more harm than when he plays LF.

I agree with the assessment that if you can't play 1B you should probably be a DH, but there is no DH in the NL and this team's top threat needs to be in LF IMO.

I've played every position in my years of baseball, but those days ended in high school, so I'm by no means an expert, so take it for what it's worth. I would say that fielding fly balls are much trickier than picking throws at first. Flies to the outfield can take on a life of their own on a windy day, and then there are the line drives that slice away from you. At first, most throws are coming right at you with relatively little movement. While you do get the occassional throw in the dirt at first, a lot of throws that miss are off either to the side or above. Dunn is a huge guy and is going to get to balls that would pull smaller guys off the bag. So I would guess that what you lose in errant throws in the dirt, you make up for in fewer balls going over his head or off to the side. The thought of a shorty like Valentin playing first worries me more than a big guy like Dunn.