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Thread: Don't underestimate the importance...

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  1. #1
    Reds 5:11 coachw513's Avatar
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    Don't underestimate the importance...

    of the ridiculed "veteran presence" some bring to this club...if a playoff run exists, this doesn't hurt:

    From today's Post:

    JEWELRY SHOW - Mike Stanton brought in his treasure in less-than auspicious manner - a white plastic bag with a silhouette of a cow and the words "Gold's - Best Meat in Town" on the side.

    It wasn't meat inside the bag, but ice - as in jewelry. Reds reliever Eddie Guardado asked Stanton if he could bring in his rings from his Houston-area home so Guardado could get a peek at the treasures.

    Stanton brought all of his rings in, all eight of them. He had two National League championship rings from his time with the Braves and a 1995 World Series ring from the same team. He also brought in World Series rings he won with Yankees in 1998, 1999, 2000 and an American League championship ring from the Yankees in 2001. Stanton actually has two 1999 World Series rings, the official ring and a players-only ring that Roger Clemens had designed and the players paid for themselves.

    "The Reds better dig real deep if we win one this year, 'cause I want a big one," Guardado said.

    Several players took turns trying on the rings, including Guardado, who came out with five on one hand to show his teammates the jewelry.

    "That's all I want," Guardado said. "I've done everything else. I want a ring."

    Stanton may have the most jewelry of any current Red, but he's certainly not alone in the possession of the game's biggest prize. Bronson Arroyo won a World Series ring with Boston in 2004 and David Weathers won one with the Yankees in 1996. Jeff Conine and Alex Gonzalez were teammates on the 2003 Marlins and Conine was also a part of Florida's 1997 World Series winners.

    The 2003 Marlins ring is the largest World Series ring ever, with 229 diamonds.

    "Hey Gonzo, bring out the real jewelry," reliever David Weathers said as others were admiring Stanton's hardware.
    Too many of us are so willing to dream of Votto, and Bruce and the like...but if we are close in September I'm counting that these guys will be a major part of learning how to handle it and thrive...

    By the way, 229 Diamonds ...are you kidding me??...wow...guess my wife really got shortchanged


    You cannot defeat an ignorant man in an argument!
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    Though many of us here are sure trying

  2. #2
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Veteran presence is great in the clubhouse, but if it doesn't show up on the field, they aren't getting that ring.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  3. #3
    Reds 5:11 coachw513's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Veteran presence is great in the clubhouse, but if it doesn't show up on the field, they aren't getting that ring.
    The thing is, all of those guys did just fine in April...others failed to have a productive month...the bullpen implosion generally wasn't a Stanton/Weathers issue, and Conine and Gonzalez had fantastic months...


    You cannot defeat an ignorant man in an argument!
    -William Gibbs McAdoo

    Though many of us here are sure trying

  4. #4
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachw513 View Post
    The thing is, all of those guys did just fine in April...others failed to have a productive month...the bullpen implosion generally wasn't a Stanton/Weathers issue, and Conine and Gonzalez had fantastic months...
    True. Stanton finished April with a high ERA thanks to two poor performances but overall he was alright. Gonzalez had eye-popping numbers for him in April.

  5. #5
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachw513 View Post
    The thing is, all of those guys did just fine in April...others failed to have a productive month...the bullpen implosion generally wasn't a Stanton/Weathers issue, and Conine and Gonzalez had fantastic months...
    Sorry, I wasn't directing it at Stanton or any other player mentioned in the article. I was just speaking generally. If guys with "veteran presence" are performing on the field, I feel they are valuable to the team. I just don't like it when it's used to justify the presence of a player in the lineup who is clearly "past his prime." In those cases, I think continuing to run him out there when you've got good talent sitting behind him does more harm than good. And it is only April. If these guys are still contributing in August, good for them. If not, do you keep running them out there for their "veteran presence?"
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  6. #6
    Reds 5:11 coachw513's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Sorry, I wasn't directing it at Stanton or any other player mentioned in the article. I was just speaking generally. If guys with "veteran presence" are performing on the field, I feel they are valuable to the team. I just don't like it when it's used to justify the presence of a player in the lineup who is clearly "past his prime." In those cases, I think continuing to run him out there when you've got good talent sitting behind him does more harm than good. And it is only April. If these guys are still contributing in August, good for them. If not, do you keep running them out there for their "veteran presence?"
    Absolutely...ANYONE'S presence in the lineup should be based on performance...but much is done behind the scenes, preparing the right way, handling stress and adversity and so on...

    Last year, I'm not sure we had a group of guys who could show the team how to "get out" of the free-fall that accompanied the August swoon and the west-coast swing debacle...not that it won't happen again, but I think this team is more insulated to handling the day-to-day and being able to respond accordingly and that's due to having guys who have "been there, done that"...


    You cannot defeat an ignorant man in an argument!
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    Though many of us here are sure trying

  7. #7
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachw513 View Post
    Absolutely...ANYONE'S presence in the lineup should be based on performance...but much is done behind the scenes, preparing the right way, handling stress and adversity and so on...

    Last year, I'm not sure we had a group of guys who could show the team how to "get out" of the free-fall that accompanied the August swoon and the west-coast swing debacle...not that it won't happen again, but I think this team is more insulated to handling the day-to-day and being able to respond accordingly and that's due to having guys who have "been there, done that"...
    Griffey's veteran presence has been with the club since 2000.
    Arroyo was with the team last season.
    Rich Aurilia had been through a number of playoff series, including a World Series.
    Scott Hatteberg has seen plenty of playoff experience.

    So you substitute Conine for Aurilia and add Stanton and Gonzalez to the mix, and suddenly the club is better prepared for a playoff run? I don't see it.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Veteran presence doesn't mean squat if those veterans can't produce.

    Gonzalez provides a defensive bulwark for the IF, that's what's going to help the Reds. If Stanton pitches well, then that will help the Reds. Every team has its share of veterans. The Reds certainly haven't been lacking them over the previous six seasons. Did they teach the team how to thrive and how to handle the pressure of a competitive season? No.

    All the "leadership" in the world will amount to nothing if you don't have the talent and that talent doesn't already have the necessary internal fortitude. When those two things are in place, then it doesn't matter who your elder statesman are. As long as they can contribute any mix of them will do.
    Last edited by M2; 05-02-2007 at 12:24 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  9. #9
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Veteran presence doesn't mean squat if those veterans can't produce.
    Agreed.

    Nobody around here ridicules veterans who actually put up the numbers.
    Go Gators!

  10. #10
    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    Agreed.

    Nobody around here ridicules veterans who actually put up the numbers.
    Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong on Aurilia--it's a tough crack pipe for them to get their lips off of....
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  11. #11
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong....
    Fixed that for you.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  12. #12
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong on Aurilia…
    Correct. First he had to put up the numbers, which was Krono's point.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  13. #13
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    Hmmmm, took quite a while for people to admit they were wrong on Aurilia--it's a tough crack pipe for them to get their lips off of....
    Eh I don't see it, as much as people talk about Aurilia bashing it's nowhere near the dead horse that people bashing on Dunn is.

    Until the 2nd half of last year after the "trade" there was always younger player on the roster people would have rather seen, in 05 it was Lopez and then EE, and again last year it was EE and Deno.

    He's gone now so maybe we can all let it go.
    Go Gators!

  14. #14
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    All the "leadership" in the world will amount to nothing if you don't have the talent and that talent doesn't already have the necessary internal fortitude. When those two things are in place, then it doesn't matter who your elder statesman are. As long as they can contribute any mix of them will do.
    I agree 100% that if a team doesn't have the tallent, no amount of Vet Presence will overcome that. I also agree 100% that vet presence and PTGTRW is often code for "this guy is marginal but we have to explain why we traded for him".

    However, I think there is definatley a value of having vets around to pass down tips and tricks to help players improve. Why do you think players flock to a Soto or Bench? There's a value to having someone who's been there before to mentor someone who has not. Raw tallent only gets you so far if it isn't focused. The managers/coaches job is to focus that tallent, but there is no one better than a "peer" to go to when you are having problems and help you think about things in a different way.

    I'd dissagree that any mix of "elderstatesman" will do. Bonds qualifies, but do you really want him in your clubhouse?

    I think the Reds have over used the "vet presence" and PTGTRW bit soooooo much that many here roll their eyes in distain when they hear it. It's a shame because the addition of a vet who can actually contribute on the field, in addition to in the clubhouse is of critical importance, IMO. Young, raw, unfocused tallent isn't the answer to every problem.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 05-02-2007 at 05:08 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  15. #15
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Don't underestimate the importance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    I'd dissagree that any mix of "elderstatesman" will do. Bonds qualifies, but do you really want him in your clubhouse?
    Say what you will about Barry Bonds, but he seems to be able to carry a baseball club on his back, even if he's lacking in the humanity department.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    I think the Reds have over used the "vet presence" and PTGTRW bit soooooo much that many here roll their eyes in distain when they hear it. It's a shame because the addition of a vet who can actually contribute on the field, in addition to in the clubhouse is of critical importance, IMO. Young, raw, unfocused tallent isn't the answer to every problem.
    The disdain comes when PTGTRW doesn't PTGTRW. I've been told guys who can't play SS worth a lick play the game the right way. I've been told pitchers who can't do much more than absorb abuse while they're on the mound play the game right way. I've been told guys who can't hit their way out of a wet paper bag play the game the right way.

    Jose Reyes plays the game the right way. Grady Sizemore plays the game the right way.

    I've got no problem in using vets to fill holes in accordance with their talents. It's when PTGTRW is used as a blanket protection for an otherwise exceedingly poor decision that fries my bacon.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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