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Thread: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

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    Winning the Human Race TheBigLebowski's Avatar
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    Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Overdone topic, I acknowledge that. However, tonight pushed me over the edge.

    I am SOOOO tired of bad Reds managing that I'm nearing the point that I stop caring completely. Sure, I'll still watch now and again but, I will NOT invest myself in another Reds team until we have a COMPETENT MAJOR LEAGUE MANAGER. Not Ray Knight. Not Bob Boone. Not Dave Miley. Not Jerry Narron. A COMPETENT MAJOR LEAGUE MANAGER.

    Just to head you pro-Narron guys and gals off at the pass, I acknowledge that JN has a poor bullpen with which to work. I also acknowledge that the right handed hitting is a weakness created by Wayne Krivsky.

    I'm not even going to delve into the highly questionable lineup construction and it's constant manipulation. It honestly reminds me of my 8th grade Little League years..we used to anxiously await the lineup card because it reflected how our coach felt we practiced or played in the preceding days. It ain't like that in the majors. But, I promised I wouldn't delve into the lineup issues. I've already sorta lied.

    Tonight's game is a microcosm of why Jerry Narron sucks. I doubt anyone who reads this post will argue that JM is a slave to dogmatic baseball decisions and generally accepted norms; ie: make sure you bat the righty against the lefty reliever or, make sure you pitch the righty against the lefty batter.

    He played into the dogmatic baseball beliefs....pinch-hit the ridiculously incompetent on all levels Juan Castro in a 2 out, RBI situation in the 7th when he had two much better lefty bats on the bench. Quite predictably, Manos De Caca popped out, leaving David Ross stranded on 2nd. Actually, that outcome was not all THAT predictable, as most would have foretold that Mighty Casey would strike out.

    JN again fell prey to Dogma in the bottom of the 8th, bringing in the slumping (or, perhaps, he just sucks) Mike "Hey! I'm fat and old but, I'm Still a Lefty!" Stanton in to face a few left handed batters. Stanton has not missed bats nor created any outs lately but, that doesn't matter - he is a left handed pitcher and he would be facing left handed batters. That's what matters.

    3 batters later, the 'Stros are back in front. 3 ER for Mikey.

    Shockingly enough, the Reds, down 2 runs in the top of the 9th, mount a bit of a rally. Hammy and Freel reach. 1st and 2nd, no outs, Reds down by 2, Brandon Phillips at the plate. Griffey & Co behind him.

    THIS is the situation that truly causes one to HATE Jerry Narron.

    Conventional baseball wisdom - aka baseball dogma - dictates that you have a guy like Brandon Phillips lay down a bunt here. Firstly, you have a guy at the plate who knows how to bunt. He is also fast. HE IS ALSO A RIGHTY FACING A RIGHTY - A SITUATION THAT JN IS WELL-DOCUMENTED TO HATE. A well placed bunt may actually cause the defense to have to make a good play to throw him out. Worst case scenario - 2nd and 3rd with one out. JR up next, righty/lefty, one out, hot hitter, 2 in scoring position.

    No.

    Jerry elects to let Brandon, who is not exactly a contact hitter, swing away. He flies out, setting up a 1st and 3rd with one out and JR to the plate.

    Honestly, if you didn't know what was coming next, you just don't know the Reds.

    JR bounces into a Casey. Ballgame.

    I guess what I want at this point is for someone to defend Narron. I completely loathe the guy. I have never seen a manager with lower baseball acumen. He just lacks a general feel for the game.


    Tonight sucked and I am going to bed. I am sick of this.
    Last edited by TheBigLebowski; 05-04-2007 at 12:10 AM.
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    keep bringing in those saarloss and stanton guys thats narron sprinkle it with coffey

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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Also for the record: One of those lefties that Stanton faced today was batting .415 vs. LH and .100+ vs. RH'ers. Way to leave him in.

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    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Of course if Narron bunts there and the next two batters fail to get the runs in, everyone would be all over him for giving up an out when Wheeler was looking hittable...

    The Stanton decision I can't defend. Stanton has been just a hair better than unbearable all season long, but I'm not sure who I like better in that situation anyway -- Coffey had pitched well but he hasn't been Mr. Automatic this year. It was too early for Weathers, and I'm not certain I'd be comfortable with Salmon in there again.
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    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Having Phillips bunt would decrease the Reds chances of winning this game, like most bunts do. Taking the bat of decent htitters hands is gnerally not a very good idea, especially guys that are capable of knocking in runs. Bunting would have decreased the chances of the Reds winning.

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    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Of course if Narron bunts there and the next two batters fail to get the runs in, everyone would be all over him for giving up an out when Wheeler was looking hittable...

    The Stanton decision I can't defend. Stanton has been just a hair better than unbearable all season long, but I'm not sure who I like better in that situation anyway -- Coffey had pitched well but he hasn't been Mr. Automatic this year. It was too early for Weathers, and I'm not certain I'd be comfortable with Salmon in there again.
    Your point is well taken, managers cannot win in strategy discussions if the team loses, but the point is some guys just seem to know ehen to make the right move. Narron does not. I don't know how much of this is luck or knowledge, but some have it and some don't. Narron is one who "don't".

    He also doesn't seem to know when a pitcher is floundering or in command. Tonight, he watched the Astros do batting practice off of Stanton, but did he make a move? Nope. He left Stanton in to face a man who kills leftys. It's like he never knows what to do so he goes with the veteran and hopes the knowledge acquired from so many games will pull them through. It gives me a headache.
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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigLebowski View Post
    He played into the dogmatic baseball beliefs....pinch-hit the ridiculously incompetent on all levels Juan Castro in a 2 out, RBI situation in the 7th when he had two much better lefty bats on the bench.i
    You were facing a lefty pitcher. You want a RH'd bat. And Valentin, even though a swith-hitter, is far weaker from the right side of the plate.

    JN again fell prey to Dogma in the bottom of the 8th, bringing in the slumping (or, perhaps, he just sucks) Mike "Hey! I'm fat and old but, I'm Still a Lefty!" Stanton in to face a few left handed batters.
    Again - when lefties are coming up, you pitch a lefty. Any manager will do that for the most part.

    Shockingly enough, the Reds, down 2 runs in the top of the 9th, mount a bit of a rally. Hammy and Freel reach. 1st and 2nd, no outs, Reds down by 2, Brandon Phillips at the plate. Griffey & Co behind him.

    THIS is the situation that truly causes one to HATE Jerry Narron.

    Conventional baseball wisdom - aka baseball dogma - dictates that you have a guy like Brandon Phillips lay down a bunt here. Firstly, you have a guy at the plate who knows how to bunt. He is also fast. HE IS ALSO A RIGHTY FACING A RIGHTY - A SITUATION THAT JN IS WELL-DOCUMENTED TO HATE. A well placed bunt may actually cause the defense to have to make a good play to throw him out. Worst case scenario - 2nd and 3rd with one out. JR up next, righty/lefty, one out, hot hitter, 2 in scoring position.
    So you're willing to mathematically give up an out, down 2 runs, just to try and move runners over? More bad things can happen from that situation then good IMO..... pops it up, bunts back to the pitcher, Ks = wasted A/B.

    Jerry elects to let Brandon, who is not exactly a contact hitter, swing away.
    He has been making contact as of late. He had two hits tonight, including a triple, and does possess power (5 hrs). And he is tied with Dunn in leading the team in RBIs (16). Would you have Dunn bunting in that situation?

    He flies out, setting up a 1st and 3rd with one out and JR to the plate.... Jr bounces into a Casey. Ballgame.
    That's also called a Jr too. He does that a lot, regardless that overall, he had a solid game.

    I personally, with a man on 3B, think Freel should have stolen 2B to not only get himself into scoring position, but to break up the DP situation.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    One thing that is rarely, if ever, brought up about Narron, is that his bullpens, wherever he manages, perform poorly. One can say he doesn't have much to work with (which I don't buy--the Reds have some decent arms in the pen), but look at when he managed Texas--they weren't tight-wads with signing people. Still, terrible. Either Jerry has problems handling a bullpen, or a lot of bad pitching seems to follow him wherever he goes. You answer.
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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    One thing that is rarely, if ever, brought up about Narron, is that his bullpens, wherever he manages, perform poorly. One can say he doesn't have much to work with (which I don't buy--the Reds have some decent arms in the pen), but look at when he managed Texas--they weren't tight-wads with signing people. Still, terrible. Either Jerry has problems handling a bullpen, or a lot of bad pitching seems to follow him wherever he goes. You answer.

    A Texas FO that doesn't know a good arm when it sees one. Looking at what we've seen performance-wise from this BP over the last year or so, I wouldn't even label them "decent". Decent at what?

    We have all griped and complained about the BP arms signed, and rightly so. We've started thread after thread on this subject, expressing our frustration. Now we're gonna lay it on Narron because they don't perform? Especially If we say they are pretty much ho-hum arms to begin with? And then we wonder why he tries to stretch his SPs as far as they can?

    Bad pitching following him? Hardly.

    And when it comes to game time decisions/strategy - some situations are no-brainers, and some aren't. They fall more into the class of "if it succeeds I'm a genius, and if it fails I'm an idiot". Narron probably falls somewhere in the middle.
    Last edited by GAC; 05-04-2007 at 02:38 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    I think the funny thing about Krivsky is, his desires to build "power arms" in the minors(not necessarily all "heat" either, but guys that can strikeout people) and muscle, but pretty much sign "easy" vets into the major league team.

    I think that tells you what Krivsky thinks of the major league team's chances: Nill. He would rather spend money on placeholders who he can release,trade and cut rather than spend it on somebody because he thinks it won't help the Reds cross the goalline lowering financial costs to a lame duck team.

    I suspect this year's draft will feature more guys that may have a pen career and are big fella's. Considering they were all newbies last year, I expect a better looking overall draft than last season. He has plenty of picks to work with.

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis View Post
    I think the funny thing about Krivsky is, his desires to build "power arms" in the minors(not necessarily all "heat" either, but guys that can strikeout people) and muscle, but pretty much sign "easy" vets into the major league team.

    I think that tells you what Krivsky thinks of the major league team's chances: Nill. He would rather spend money on placeholders who he can release,trade and cut rather than spend it on somebody because he thinks it won't help the Reds cross the goalline lowering financial costs to a lame duck team.

    I suspect this year's draft will feature more guys that may have a pen career and are big fella's. Considering they were all newbies last year, I expect a better looking overall draft than last season. He has plenty of picks to work with.
    And maybe that is one of the reasons why he is picking up a few of these guy he can easily release and/or cut with no huge commitment/strings attached? Because he is attempting to draft, acquire, re-build the farm system?

    But I don't believe for one minute that Krivsky carries the attitude, that buoys his decision-making processes, that this teams chances are NIL. He won't be Castellini's GM for long if that were true.

    And since he has had the job, how many of these "easy" vets has Krivsky signed that are starters, and not simply platoon and/or bench support? Conine, Hatteberg, Castro. When it comes to the bullpen, take a look around the majors. A vast majority of teams are signing these vets. They aren't being put out to pasture, and that may be due to a dire need that has become hard to fill by most teams.

    What is "killing" a lot of teams this year is their bullpens.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Kearns View Post
    Having Phillips bunt would decrease the Reds chances of winning this game, like most bunts do. Taking the bat of decent htitters hands is gnerally not a very good idea, especially guys that are capable of knocking in runs. Bunting would have decreased the chances of the Reds winning.
    Bingo. According to the Win Expectancy Finder, it would actually go from 22.9% to 17.7%.

    Down two as a visitor, you DONT bunt there. Down one...you do. Narron actually go that one right.
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    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    I agree with GAC on this point why wasn't Freel stealing 2nd base when we had a man on 3rd. Wheeler obviously would have had to be thinking about Freel's speed on 1st base. Has Narron lost confidence in Ryan's ability to steal a base?

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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    The only thing I would have done differently last night is I wouldn't have had Coffey start the 8th. And that move worked out. Who else do you go to besides Stanton? Coutlangus couldn't get the ball over the plate the night before. Frenchy's gone. Bray's in AAA. Maybe you put Salmon in there but do you really want a guy making his 2nd appearance in the big leagues in that kind of a situation?
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    Re: Let's Talk About Jerry Narron

    GAC pretty much said it all in a dead on fashion.


    I think alot of Narron criticism is bolstered with a good bit of hindsight which strikes me as not being the fairest criticism.
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