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Thread: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

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    Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Hello all. This is my first post. I'm a long time Reds fan who picked up this site when I read the responses to my friend's blog post "Reassessing the Kearns Trade." I am Craig's co-worker who generated the idea for the article. Because I am new here and unable to post a reply on the Old Red Guard, I thought I would post my thoughts on the responses to the blog in this thread. Thanks for reading and I look forward to being part of this online community.

    REASSESSING "REASSESSING THE KEARNS TRADE"

    "A lie told often enough becomes the truth" - V.I. Lenin

    As the Reds fan who inspired the Shyster's latest column, "Reassessing The Kearns Trade," I feel a good deal of responsibility for some of the critical remarks the Shyster has taken on baseballthinkfactory and redszone. The article has generated over 130 posts on the old read guard as I am writing this response. Generally speaking, those who still disagree with the trade will admit that the Reds have since improved with Hamilton and Gonzalez but raise two arguments on why the trade was nevertheless a mistake: (1) the Reds should have gotten more value for those players; and (2) the trade failed to acheive its stated purpose, which was to make the team better in 2006.

    As to the first argument, it can only be debated with conjecture. The Reds gave up an average hitting NL right fielder with good defensive skills. They gave up an error-prone shortstop with a decent bat. It is clear that both players, arbitration eligible with free agency on the horizon, were getting expensive relative to their production. It is also clear that Wayne Krivsky wanted to go in a different long-term direction. Who knows what type of return Krivsky was offered for these players. My sense is that it was much less than Reds fans expect. Teams can go out and get players with similar production for perhaps a bit more money in free agency and not have to give up any players in return, even if those players are unproven prospects or major league rookies. It's very similar to my mentality when I am trading in a car, holding a garage sale, or selling my junk on ebay - I am consistently dissappointed in the selling price. Human beings tend to over-value their own property relative to what is offered on the free and open market. I think that goes for fans of sports teams as well.

    While the first argument may be worthy of debate, the second argument is where I was most concerned. I read posts pointing out that the Reds were 45-44 before the trade and 35-38 after it. As one poster on the old red guard put it: "Pre-trade: A winning ballclub. Post-trade: A losing ballclub. That makes a trade whose stated purpose was to push the team into the playoffs, a failure." Another poster pointed out how the Reds team batting average and runs per game dropped after the trade.

    I began to worry. Had I been wrong? Had I let the Shyster down? Had the loss of Kearns and Lopez's bats really caused my Reds to miss out on that playoff spot for which they fell 3.5 games short. I decided to investigate by checking the stats. My conclusion is that many Reds fans have fallen for (or purposefully refused to see through) the fallacy that correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The Andy Griffith Show went off the air on April 1, 1968. Within the next couple months, great Americans Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy were assasignated. I suppose one could argue that without the Andy Griffith Show, Americans lost their sense of civility and family values and that was the cause of these senseless tragedies. However, my gut tells me that there were other causal factors in play and the Andy Griffith Show-1968 assasignations was merely a spurious correlation.

    Like the above example, after looking at the statistics, I became convinced that while there was a drop in run production and wins during the post-trade 2006 Reds season, that decline had very little to do with the absence of Kearns and Lopez. Rather, it is almost exclusively attributable to the horrendous September slumps of the other six starters in the Reds lineup.

    Trade bashers ignore that the Reds improved their record from 45-44 at the trade on July 14th to 67-61 by August 24th. In so doing, they gained five games on their pre-trade record and were in a virtual first place deadlock with the Cardinals (who were 66-60 on August 24th). After August 24th, the wheels fell off. The Reds went 13-21 and finished 3.5 games behind the Cardinals for the NL Central title. The reasons for this decline can almost exclusively be explained by the September batting averages of the Reds' other six starting position players:

    Adam Dunn: .157
    Ken Griffy, Jr.: .071
    Edwin Encarnacion: .214
    Brandon Phillips: .149
    Scott Hatteburg: .206
    David Ross: .185

    Given that team-wide futility, Alex Rodriquez and Alphonso Soriano could not have made the Reds winners in September, 2006, much less Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez. Royce Clayton was bench for most of September (going .206 in only 34 at bats). Meanwhile, Rich Aurillia, who ended up replacing Clayton at short for most of the games in September, hit a tidy .344 in September with 90 at bats. Austin Kearns was replaced by a platoon of Ryan Freel and Chris Denorfia. While Freel struggled along with the rest of the team (a .206 September batting average with 53 at bats), Chris Denorfia hit .352 in September in 54 at bats. The Reds got equal or better offensive production during their decline in September 2006 from the Kearns and Lopez replacements. The problem was everyone else.

    I wasn't the biggest trade supporter at the time. But I've come to realize that it probably resulted in a net benefit for the Reds organization and did not cost the Reds a 2006 run at glory. I think that some were so vehemently against the trade that, in an attempt to prove they were right, they have endorsed bogus arguments such as the trade cost the 2006 Reds a playoff spot. That sentiment has been echoed so many times that even though clearly wrong, it has been generally accepted as the truth.

    I don't think every move Wayne Krivsky has made has been correct. I'm still scratching my head at the Rheal Cormier acquisition. I am frustrated that the Reds have not gone out and gotten a legitimate closer. However, from the top down, the Reds organization was one of the poorest run MLB systems in the 21st Century prior to Krivsky's arrival. If one looks realistically at the Reds roster prior to spring training 2006 (when Krivsky took over), I don't see how one can contend that the Reds have not improved in all facets except the bullpen. Arroyo is pitching brilliantly, Lohse has started the season well, Gonzalez is an upgrade at short, Phillips is an upgrade at second, and Hamilton has been an upgrade from the beloved Austin Kearns. The bullpen is a disaster, but Rome was not built in a day. I'm excited about the long term signings of Arroyo and Harang, the prospect of Homer Bailey being in the rotation, and the nucleas of young players in who could shine over the next 3-4 seasons (Hamilton, Phillips, Encarnacion, Joey Votto, and Jay Bruce). Reds fans should give Wayne Krivsky a little patience in turning around the train wreck he inherited.

    In the meantime, we can debate whether Krivsky got enough in return for Lopez and Kearns. However, don't fall victim to the notions that the Reds have downgraded at those positions long-term or that the trade cost the Reds a playoff spot in 2006. The numbers say otherwise and, unlike popular perception, the numbers don't lie.


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    Strategery RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Outstanding post.

    welcome to the board.
    We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective ~ Kurt Vonnegut

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snow Chief View Post
    Hello all. This is my first post. I'm a long time Reds fan who picked up this site when I read the responses to my friend's blog post "Reassessing the Kearns Trade." I am Craig's co-worker who generated the idea for the article. Because I am new here and unable to post a reply on the Old Red Guard, I thought I would post my thoughts on the responses to the blog in this thread. Thanks for reading and I look forward to being part of this online community.

    REASSESSING "REASSESSING THE KEARNS TRADE"

    "A lie told often enough becomes the truth" - V.I. Lenin

    As the Reds fan who inspired the Shyster's latest column, "Reassessing The Kearns Trade," I feel a good deal of responsibility for some of the critical remarks the Shyster has taken on baseballthinkfactory and redszone. The article has generated over 130 posts on the old read guard as I am writing this response. Generally speaking, those who still disagree with the trade will admit that the Reds have since improved with Hamilton and Gonzalez but raise two arguments on why the trade was nevertheless a mistake: (1) the Reds should have gotten more value for those players; and (2) the trade failed to acheive its stated purpose, which was to make the team better in 2006.

    As to the first argument, it can only be debated with conjecture. The Reds gave up an average hitting NL right fielder with good defensive skills. They gave up an error-prone shortstop with a decent bat. It is clear that both players, arbitration eligible with free agency on the horizon, were getting expensive relative to their production. It is also clear that Wayne Krivsky wanted to go in a different long-term direction. Who knows what type of return Krivsky was offered for these players. My sense is that it was much less than Reds fans expect. Teams can go out and get players with similar production for perhaps a bit more money in free agency and not have to give up any players in return, even if those players are unproven prospects or major league rookies. It's very similar to my mentality when I am trading in a car, holding a garage sale, or selling my junk on ebay - I am consistently dissappointed in the selling price. Human beings tend to over-value their own property relative to what is offered on the free and open market. I think that goes for fans of sports teams as well.

    While the first argument may be worthy of debate, the second argument is where I was most concerned. I read posts pointing out that the Reds were 45-44 before the trade and 35-38 after it. As one poster on the old red guard put it: "Pre-trade: A winning ballclub. Post-trade: A losing ballclub. That makes a trade whose stated purpose was to push the team into the playoffs, a failure." Another poster pointed out how the Reds team batting average and runs per game dropped after the trade.

    I began to worry. Had I been wrong? Had I let the Shyster down? Had the loss of Kearns and Lopez's bats really caused my Reds to miss out on that playoff spot for which they fell 3.5 games short. I decided to investigate by checking the stats. My conclusion is that many Reds fans have fallen for (or purposefully refused to see through) the fallacy that correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The Andy Griffith Show went off the air on April 1, 1968. Within the next couple months, great Americans Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy were assasignated. I suppose one could argue that without the Andy Griffith Show, Americans lost their sense of civility and family values and that was the cause of these senseless tragedies. However, my gut tells me that there were other causal factors in play and the Andy Griffith Show-1968 assasignations was merely a spurious correlation.

    Like the above example, after looking at the statistics, I became convinced that while there was a drop in run production and wins during the post-trade 2006 Reds season, that decline had very little to do with the absence of Kearns and Lopez. Rather, it is almost exclusively attributable to the horrendous September slumps of the other six starters in the Reds lineup.

    Trade bashers ignore that the Reds improved their record from 45-44 at the trade on July 14th to 67-61 by August 24th. In so doing, they gained five games on their pre-trade record and were in a virtual first place deadlock with the Cardinals (who were 66-60 on August 24th). After August 24th, the wheels fell off. The Reds went 13-21 and finished 3.5 games behind the Cardinals for the NL Central title. The reasons for this decline can almost exclusively be explained by the September batting averages of the Reds' other six starting position players:

    Adam Dunn: .157
    Ken Griffy, Jr.: .071
    Edwin Encarnacion: .214
    Brandon Phillips: .149
    Scott Hatteburg: .206
    David Ross: .185

    Given that team-wide futility, Alex Rodriquez and Alphonso Soriano could not have made the Reds winners in September, 2006, much less Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez. Royce Clayton was bench for most of September (going .206 in only 34 at bats). Meanwhile, Rich Aurillia, who ended up replacing Clayton at short for most of the games in September, hit a tidy .344 in September with 90 at bats. Austin Kearns was replaced by a platoon of Ryan Freel and Chris Denorfia. While Freel struggled along with the rest of the team (a .206 September batting average with 53 at bats), Chris Denorfia hit .352 in September in 54 at bats. The Reds got equal or better offensive production during their decline in September 2006 from the Kearns and Lopez replacements. The problem was everyone else.

    I wasn't the biggest trade supporter at the time. But I've come to realize that it probably resulted in a net benefit for the Reds organization and did not cost the Reds a 2006 run at glory. I think that some were so vehemently against the trade that, in an attempt to prove they were right, they have endorsed bogus arguments such as the trade cost the 2006 Reds a playoff spot. That sentiment has been echoed so many times that even though clearly wrong, it has been generally accepted as the truth.

    I don't think every move Wayne Krivsky has made has been correct. I'm still scratching my head at the Rheal Cormier acquisition. I am frustrated that the Reds have not gone out and gotten a legitimate closer. However, from the top down, the Reds organization was one of the poorest run MLB systems in the 21st Century prior to Krivsky's arrival. If one looks realistically at the Reds roster prior to spring training 2006 (when Krivsky took over), I don't see how one can contend that the Reds have not improved in all facets except the bullpen. Arroyo is pitching brilliantly, Lohse has started the season well, Gonzalez is an upgrade at short, Phillips is an upgrade at second, and Hamilton has been an upgrade from the beloved Austin Kearns. The bullpen is a disaster, but Rome was not built in a day. I'm excited about the long term signings of Arroyo and Harang, the prospect of Homer Bailey being in the rotation, and the nucleas of young players in who could shine over the next 3-4 seasons (Hamilton, Phillips, Encarnacion, Joey Votto, and Jay Bruce). Reds fans should give Wayne Krivsky a little patience in turning around the train wreck he inherited.

    In the meantime, we can debate whether Krivsky got enough in return for Lopez and Kearns. However, don't fall victim to the notions that the Reds have downgraded at those positions long-term or that the trade cost the Reds a playoff spot in 2006. The numbers say otherwise and, unlike popular perception, the numbers don't lie.
    I've been taken to task so much for trying to say the same thing you just did. I can now see why -- I wasn't as articulate.

    I totally agree with you.

    Great post!!!

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    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snow Chief View Post

    I wasn't the biggest trade supporter at the time. But I've come to realize that it probably resulted in a net benefit for the Reds organization and did not cost the Reds a 2006 run at glory. I think that some were so vehemently against the trade that, in an attempt to prove they were right, they have endorsed bogus arguments such as the trade cost the 2006 Reds a playoff spot. That sentiment has been echoed so many times that even though clearly wrong, it has been generally accepted as the truth.
    Thats a new one to me. I don't recall that one being forwarded by anyone here, and certainly not by the masses.

    Nice overall post though, welcome aboard.

    GL

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Welcome to the board, Snow Chief and good first post. I'll be looking forward to reading more from you in the future...
    'When I'm not longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg.'
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    Bullpen or whatever RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snow Chief View Post
    In the meantime, we can debate whether Krivsky got enough in return for Lopez and Kearns. However, don't fall victim to the notions that the Reds have downgraded at those positions long-term or that the trade cost the Reds a playoff spot in 2006. The numbers say otherwise and, unlike popular perception, the numbers don't lie.
    Very nice post... elegantly argued and much better than I thought from the title, which almost made me fall out of my chair.

    Unfortunately, I think the two sides have a fundamental disagreement, and it has to do with your first point, not the one you spend most of your time defending. Most anti-Trade "bashers" would be inclined to agree that we have gotten upgrades at several positions (although some would still hold that we are now substantially overpaying a good-field, no-hit shortstop and lacking a potent RH bat for the line-up, but those are mere quibbles).

    While claims that Krivsky "could have gotten better" might be conjecture, we also do know that Krivsky himself reflected that fans "might think he overpaid" right after The Trade. While not an admission of guilt by a long stretch, this is odd wording from a GM bartering for talent during a playoff run, a role that usually calls for a "media sell" on even the most imbalanced deals. We also know that Bob Wickman and several other useful bullpen arms were dealt around the same time of The Trade (including several to our own team like Scott Schoenweiss and Eddie Guardado) for MUCH cheaper prices. Given these facts, it does not seem outlandish to think that Krivsky could have gotten better arms in return for Kearns and Lopez had he waited until the off-season--or even had he talked to other teams in a more constructive manner. Indeed, we also know that several respected, long-time Reds employees resigned from the FO specifically because Krivsky was so bull-headed about dealing valuable commodities without listening to them. Many anti-Trade denizens are so exhausted from marshaling this evidence on deaf ears that they have been reduced to terse, one-line responses like "Krivsky could have gotten better value" or "Screw this, I don't care anymore. Let's move on."

    Further, there is this constant pretension among pro-Traders (should I call them that? perhaps "Trade rationalizers" is a better label?) that somehow their forms of conjecture, buttressed with Aurilia and Deno's fill-in stats, or the perceived Hamilton upgrade, or whatever, are somehow more potent than our (also evidence-based) claims that Krivsky could have done better, and should have.
    Last edited by RedEye; 05-07-2007 at 10:41 AM.
    “Every level he goes to, he is going to compete. They will know who he is at every level he goes to.” -- ED on EDLC

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    they have endorsed bogus arguments such as the trade cost the 2006 Reds a playoff spot.
    That's the worst argument out there. Costing us a playoff spot in '06? I'd rather not make the playoffs in '06 to make a playoff run beginning the next year and rebuilding the weakest part of our team for the next few years. I'm cremating a dead horse, but I still think this was a great trade. It's not like we were able to predict the injuries (although I'm sure Mr. Irrelevant in DC probably could've).

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong View Post
    Thats a new one to me. I don't recall that one being forwarded by anyone here, and certainly not by the masses.

    Nice overall post though, welcome aboard.

    GL
    I've seen it inferred several times that w/Kearns and Lopez we'd have had a better shot at the playoffs if not made it in. Not all have said that, but there has definetly been a mention of that.

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by gonelong View Post
    Thats a new one to me. I don't recall that one being forwarded by anyone here, and certainly not by the masses.
    I haven't heard that one either.

    A LOT of things contributed to the team's late-season swan dive last year, but it's safe to say that Bray, Majewski and Clayton did *nothing* to help the cause.

    Which was the purpose, wasn't it?

    At any rate, the "first argument" (the one related to the return) is where I focus my ire, simply because I don't see how anyone can look at what we got back in return as an equal return to what we gave up. Say what you will about the production levels of Kearns and Lopez, but the fact is they are *producing*--something Bray, majewski et al. have yet to do. Under a "best case" scenario, potentially, down the road, Bray could become a serviceable bullpen arm. Majewski *might* contribute in a marginal role. Thompson--well, who knows, but he's as likely to never set foot in GABP as he is to contribute positively for the club.

    In other words, in order to convince me that the Reds didn't get hosed in this deal, you'll have to convince me that two starting position players (both above average offensively) are worth only bullpen question marks and some minor league fodder. And that is something I simply can't buy.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by DTCromer View Post
    I still think this was a great trade. It's not like we were able to predict the injuries.
    Screw the injuries. Majewski was never anything special, Clayton was junk, and Bray *might* have some upside, but is nothing more than a question mark at this point.

    The injuries have only made an awful trade look worse.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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    Member kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Snow Chief the early leader in ROY votes.....

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    I still think the Reds could have received more for Kearns & Lopez. I really like Bray, but I always look to the trade that went down on July 31. The Pirates traded Roberto Hernandez and Oliver Perez to the Mets for Xavier Nady. I would have much rather traded Kearns (who should have as much/more trade value) for those two and still had Felipe to dangle, than net what we did in return.

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by ED44 View Post
    I still think the Reds could have received more for Kearns & Lopez. I really like Bray, but I always look to the trade that went down on July 31. The Pirates traded Roberto Hernandez and Oliver Perez to the Mets for Xavier Nady. I would have much rather traded Kearns (who should have as much/more trade value) for those two and still had Felipe to dangle, than net what we did in return.
    Forgot about that one. The examples just keep on coming. I really don't think the whole "Wayne could have gotten something better" argument is pure speculation on our part. There are TONS of examples of trades out there that netted teams far better players for far less.
    “Every level he goes to, he is going to compete. They will know who he is at every level he goes to.” -- ED on EDLC

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Forgot about that one. The examples just keep on coming. I really don't think the whole "Wayne could have gotten something better" argument is pure speculation on our part. There are TONS of examples of trades out there that netted teams far better players for far less.
    Wickman for a lower level minor league catcher.

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    Re: Reassessing "Reassessing the Kearns Trade"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Snow Chief the early leader in ROY votes.....
    +1
    “Every level he goes to, he is going to compete. They will know who he is at every level he goes to.” -- ED on EDLC


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