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Thread: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

  1. #31
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by 15fan View Post
    So let's take this thread in a different direction:

    Oswalt is now 19-1 against the Reds. Have he and his catchers been that good at staying out of patterns and setting up hitters game after game after game over the years? Or are there tendencies / patterns that are eluding the Reds' coaches/scouts/hitters? Or is his stuff so good that he could tell the hitters what's coming ahead of time and still make 'em look foolish?
    I think part of it is Oswalt's skill and part of it is the Astros organization getting him the information he needs to succeed. However, 19-1 is pretty ridiculous against any team, even for a good pitcher, so I have to think there's a certain amount of luck involved as well.
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  3. #32
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    I think scouting your own team is a very cool thing to do. I like the idea of having someone watch the team approaching it from an opponent's perspective. It might help identify issues and adapt accordingly.
    Especially if it's someone who thinks about the game differently than Narron and his coatching staff. Someone who can spot different things and think outside the PTGTRW box.

    It would be interesting to know how much money has gone to upgrading the advance scouting department, and possibly a team scout.
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  4. #33
    Reds 5:11 coachw513's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    [QUOTE=Yachtzee;1335305
    I think scouting your own team is a very cool thing to do. I like the idea of having someone watch the team approaching it from an opponent's perspective. It might help identify issues and adapt accordingly.[/QUOTE]

    I try to have a couple of good basketball people scout my team every year at various points of our season...it's sound principle to have "outsiders" critique one's own methodology and processes...
    Last edited by coachw513; 05-08-2007 at 12:43 PM.


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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Team Clark, on Trent Rosecran's blog site: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/:
    someone named David Short has a very insightful article on how Narron, and before him, Boone misuse the Bullpen. I read it and it riveted me, like, what a fresh perspective on the ongoing problem.
    Would you mind reading Rosecrans site and letting us know your opinion of this?

  6. #35
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    That's a Zoner. I saw some of those comments scattered across a thread or two.

    Like this one.
    Last edited by Redsland; 05-08-2007 at 01:26 PM.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  7. #36
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy View Post
    I've been saying this for 5 years running now - the Reds advance scouts appear to be worthless. When the same guys kill you over and over again maybe its time to change your pattern, to use other teams MO's - yet the Berkman's, Hall's, etc of the world drill us year after year.

    Some of that has to do with pitchers executing, I'm sure. But still, when every pitcer you have gets rocked by the same guys constantly and when other teams mediocre pitchers get those guys out with regularity, a good deal has to fall on advance scouting reports, IMO.

    Not just those guys. It seems that whenever the Reds play the Astros, they have trouble with Everett, Ausmus and Burke. Berkman isn't hitting well against anyone this year except one. I can understand guys like Lee and Berkman and even guys like Biggio and Ensberg hitting well against the Reds but if Everett and Ausmus played against the Reds their entire careers, they would be in the HOF. No one else seems to have problems getting those guys out except the Reds.
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  8. #37
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    That submission from the writer on Trent Rosecran's blog site is very interesting as well as Team Clark's and could be pointing to the causation of the problem that leads us to thinking that we see a terrible bullpen, when it could be the amount of usage or the lack of usage to effect the sharpness of the bullpen pitchers.

    We have been told that a pitcher x with too much rest can be too strong and not sharp, we have been told that some pitchers, z, y, that if don’t get enough work, that they aren’t sharp. So if a mixed combination of that happening to two or more of the bullpen we would have a confounding of the variables making it difficult to see to get an accurate read to come up with a genuine resolve.

    In spring training these guys are fresh and often get to work an inning or two. In everyday play they may or may not get any work, they might only face one batter, some might get over worked etc. They seem fine with work, time spaced.

    What’s the history on each of these pitchers. When were they most effective on usage and rest between pitching? I can’t grasp that 3-4 pitchers suddenly become unreliable and terrible, just all of a sudden even if each new game seems to reinforce that they are terrible. It seems to me that there has to be a reason or reasons as with Team Clark's list in his opening post in a combination with what the other writer is saying in the blog site .
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 05-08-2007 at 02:16 PM.

  9. #38
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Clark View Post
    Don't think for a second that Houston's staff did not take notice of that. Predicatability. It was a changeup. Might as well have been on a rope too.

    What happened to Coffey's split. If pitchers are shaking off Breaking balls and splits 8 out of 10 times it means their elbow is sore. Not good.

    Baseball's a game of adjustments. In one post you say the Reds should pitch Hawpe the exact way the Dodgers do, because they get him out. Yet in another post you say Coffey gets predictable, even though he was getting hitters out that way. So what's the difference? If the Reds pitch to Hawpe the way the Dodgers did, isn't that being predictable? Hawpe knows how people are getting him out, and eventually he's going to make adjustments. That's why it points to numbers 1 & 4. Sure advance scouts can tell you what guys are raking, and what guys are ice.........but your pitchers have to put pitches where they know THEY are the best, and adjust accordingly. If player A can't hit a fastball knee high on the inside corner, and the advance scout tells you that, and your pitcher throws 89, and the scout saw 95, there is nothing the pitcher can do but pitch to his strengths.

  10. #39
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    I think part of it is Oswalt's skill and part of it is the Astros organization getting him the information he needs to succeed. However, 19-1 is pretty ridiculous against any team, even for a good pitcher, so I have to think there's a certain amount of luck involved as well.
    It's Oswalts ability to take the information, execute it, and his strengths are the Reds weaknesses. Other Houston pitchers haven't had that kind of success, and they are getting the same advanced info.

  11. #40
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strikes Out Looking View Post
    Great post TC. I agree with most of it and also would add:

    The Reds don't seem to utilize video scouting effectively either. For instance, if I'm in the bullpen and the Rockies are coming to town, wouldn't I go to the video room for a couple of hours and watch some of the Rockies previous games. Don't the Reds have someone breaking this down for the team? And the flip side is the hitters should be doing the same.

    As to number 4 on TC's post, I'd say some of the Reds bullpen had "quality' arms at one time. I mean Stanton and Weathers have been around for a long time and have been pretty good at times.

    That seem to make a great deal of sense.

    To have competent people reviewing game film for certain points of opponents in previous games to see what the other teams pitching and defense was doing to be effective against the other team and their individual players.

    Then match up your defense and pitchers that can execute a copy job of what the other teams did effectively against team x and player y etc. That seems to fit in with what Team Clark indicates a scout or other are to be finding out and for the manager, coaches and players to implement that game plan the next time they are playing that team and players.

    Someone is not doing a quality work effort somewhere in the chain, I just can’t believe that 3-4-5 individual pitchers are all terrible at the same time without a reason.

  12. #41
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Very simple...it's the bullpen. It's not like Mariano and Hoffman are struggling.
    Uh, have you seen Rivera pitch this year? He's been completely ineffective and has apparently lost some velocity.

  13. #42
    Hisssssssss Yachtzee's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by hebroncougar View Post
    It's Oswalts ability to take the information, execute it, and his strengths are the Reds weaknesses. Other Houston pitchers haven't had that kind of success, and they are getting the same advanced info.
    That's pretty much what I said. His skill combined with information. Plus, 19-1 is a pretty crazy record to run up against any team and few pitchers own another team so thoroughly that I have to attribute at least some of that to luck. Much of the roster has turned over since Oswalt has started pitching against the Reds, so it can't just be that he's got some magic skill that works against this particular lineup. And there are better pitchers than Oswalt who don't have nearly the record, so that's why I say that at least some luck is involved. It doesn't diminish the fact that he is a darn good pitcher.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

  14. #43
    Member Strikes Out Looking's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsland View Post
    Perhaps you're thinking of the latest addition to the coaching staff and Josh Hamilton BFF, Johnny Narron: Reds Video and Administrative Coach.
    Oh great, another Boonesian dynasty!

  15. #44
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    That seem to make a great deal of sense.

    To have competent people reviewing game film for certain points of opponents in previous games to see what the other teams pitching and defense was doing to be effective against the other team and their individual players.

    Then match up your defense and pitchers that can execute a copy job of what the other teams did effectively against team x and player y etc. That seems to fit in with what Team Clark indicates a scout or other are to be finding out and for the manager, coaches and players to implement that game plan the next time they are playing that team and players.

    Someone is not doing a quality work effort somewhere in the chain, I just canít believe that 3-4-5 individual pitchers are all terrible at the same time without a reason.
    I can. Relievers, especially MR are hit or miss alot. Take a look at Rheal Cormier with the Phillies last year, and with the Reds. But look at him in 2002 and 2005. He was god awful for the Phillies too. Look at Stanton. In 2005 he was so bad for the Yankees, he got released. Then suddenly improved in Wash, only to go bad is Wash. the next year, and figure it out again in the same year in SF. Relievers are the hardest to project IMO because of the so small sample size you see over the year, to facing specialty pinch hitters, usage factors (like with Narron as your manager).

  16. #45
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Is it the Bullpen or Catching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotater Cuff View Post
    Team Clark, on Trent Rosecran's blog site: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/:
    someone named David Short has a very insightful article on how Narron, and before him, Boone misuse the Bullpen. I read it and it riveted me, like, what a fresh perspective on the ongoing problem.
    Would you mind reading Rosecrans site and letting us know your opinion of this?
    The blog was pretty interesting. I can certainly concur with him about the bullpen usage. There is a fine line between using a guy often enough and over using him. Right now there are a few guys that are being abused. On the flip side... what are your choices? If you have to keep going to them and the pitchers say they can pitch...well? Not an easy job to manage a bullpen but it doesn't take a genius to screw one up either. The Hammond example was pretty interesting. A 40 year old arm was abused and run out of the league coming off of a good year. JMO
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08


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