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Thread: Bonds vs. Clemens

  1. #1
    Member NDRed's Avatar
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    Bonds vs. Clemens

    I have heard alot of talk on sports radio the last few days talking about the Bonds v Clemens comparision.

    In essence, they were saying that Bonds is vilified while Clemens gets a free pass because he is white. They comment that McGuire is still revered despite having "andro" in his locker. Also, Allen Iverson was shredded for his "its practice!!" interview while Clemens gets to go home between starts. Also mentioned is the similaritiues in their career stats at the time steriods use is widely reported. I am not trying to draw conclusions- just comments.

    Take note of the 2001 (and the year before) stats, where very good baseball players became unbeatable baseball players:

    Clemens:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml

    Bonds:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml

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  3. #2
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    Bonds was a cheater and admitted he 'unknowingly' took performance enhancing illegal drugs.

    Clemens is just a jerk who gets way to many perks because teams want his services. Until there is at least a little bit of questionable ties to something, I can't say he is in the same boat as Bonds.

  4. #3
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    I wouldn't say that McGwire is "still revered." He has been, rightfully in my view, criticized for his "I'm not here to talk about the past" appearance before Congress a few years ago. The belief that Mc Gwire was juiced while having his great HR run has thus far kept him from being inducted into the HOF even though, on the surface, his career numbers warrant induction.
    While I have no doubt but that race can still be a factor in how certain players are perceived, the "talk on sports radio" appears to me to be an over-reaction. Fan reaction to players suspected of being juiced, be they white, black or Latin, has been uniformly negative, other than perhaps in the city where the athlete plays.
    It certainly wouldn't shock me to learn that Clemens has had some chemical "help," but I am not aware of any evidence to support that suspicion.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    I revile McGwire too.

  6. #5
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    I think a lot of it is just talk for talk's sake. McGwire was not even doubted till they found the bottle of Andro in his locker. Ever since then he has been under increasing scrutiny. We know about Bonds' connection to BALCO and Greg Anderson. He's been called before a grand jury and his head has grown about 3 sizes. Clemens has no link to any steroid supplier, has not been called before a grand jury and his body growth seems to be normal.
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    Harry Chiti Fan registerthis's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    I agree, this is simply sports talk radio being sports talk radio. Turning the Bonds saga into a racial issue is ridiculous beyond compare. So, what--those of us who aren't fans of Bonds and what he has done are racially motivated?

    Guess what, I'd have a problem if McGwire or Sosa were sitting at 744 as well. Guess that makes me an equal opportunity bigot.
    We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

  8. #7
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    I don't like either
    Go Gators!

  9. #8
    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by NDRed View Post
    …McGuire is still revered…
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
    Makes all the routine posts.

  10. #9
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    Bonds is directly linked, with piles upon piles of evidence, with a known steroid supplier, has a history of arrogance coupled with a massive god complex since his days in college, and underwent physique changes in his late 30's which are not only counter to the changes that 100's of ballplayers go through but are infact precisely what you'd expect from a person who took the types of substances he's accused of taking.

    Clements isn't and did not. His "spike" in performance was preceded by 5 Cy Youngs and his performance was virtually identical pre-01 to post-01. The only notable change was a drop in ERA when he went from the AL East to the NL Central. Guess what, any pitcher making that move will see his ERA drop significantly. His K/9 hasn't increased. He's throwing fewer pitchers per start. He's hanging on VERY VERY well, but he's not getting markedly better.

    Yes, Bonds is black. I'm sure that there are a handful of people that rush to villify him in part because of this, looking for any chink in the armor and exploiting it. All that means is that we should be particularly skeptical about any unsubstantiated claims and focus on evidence that is aracial, or supported by many sources. There's more than enough of that to go around. Bonds get vilified because he ACTS LIKE A VILLIAN. Clemens, and McGwire for that matter, don't belittle their colleagues constantly, demean the people around them, and act like Gods gift to the world.

    Could Clemens be taking HGH or some other undetectable substance. Sure. Does he have undeniable ties with steroid dealers, crazy body changes, and a marked spike in his performance when most players are declining? Nope. I have no doubt about racism being a problem and it having an affect on the portrayal of athletes. But to use that to discount all the things about the situation which are completely independent of race is just stupid.

    Like the OJ case, just because you're a minority and some racist people call you guilty, doesn't mean you're not guilty. Should we question their motives? Sure. But to pretend that anybody else in baseball is a fair parallel with Bonds in terms of off the field actions is ridiculous. The treatment of the press to Bonds and Clemens is apples and oranges because their circumstances are completely different. Maybe I'm just naive, but I think that if any white guy had the same behaviors, took the same actions, etc. as Barry Bonds, he be just as vilified.

    As a sociologist by training, this sort of muddling the waters of race discourse makes me sick. By playing the race card as a way of claiming innocence, Bonds is doing a disservice to those cases where racial bias is truly causing harm in society.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 05-09-2007 at 12:12 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #10
    Firin Away Jr's Boy's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by registerthis View Post
    I agree, this is simply sports talk radio being sports talk radio. Turning the Bonds saga into a racial issue is ridiculous beyond compare. So, what--those of us who aren't fans of Bonds and what he has done are racially motivated?

    Guess what, I'd have a problem if McGwire or Sosa were sitting at 744 as well. Guess that makes me an equal opportunity bigot.
    Well there is a tinge of racism to it all.

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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    I believe Bonds is villified for several reasons. Mainly being that his distaste for the media and his chase after what is probably the most respected sports record. While none of us have heard undisputable proof that Bonds took steroids or HGH (leaked testimoney is the only source) it seem stupid to doubt that he didn't take some performance enhancer.

    Clemens doesn't get the same treatment because he isn't chasing any particular record. I do believe he has used performance enhancers and there have been strong belief in the media that he has used steroids. It was believed that he was linked in the Jason Grimsely case. While Canseco does not know that Clemens used steroids he did list Clemens in his book as being a player who he believes may have used steroids based on his body and performance changes. I don't believe you can look at a change when he went to the N.L. but look at how his performance changed in 1996 when he went to Toronto and revived his career. If Clemens was chasing a record equal to the Home Run record then I hope he would be getting the same treatment as Bonds.

  13. #12
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    That's exactly what it is. Obviously no one likes black baseball players because they are black. Just think about the following players: Ken Griffey, Jr, Joe Morgan, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Bob Gibson etc.... all players that are hated because they are black. Give me a freakin break. Bonds is "hated" because he is a jerk. BigMac can't get 20% of the vote for the Hall and is not about to break a major record. The not about to break a record is the reason that he is not preceived to be hated. As a baseball fan who is white I could care less if Bonds were black or green...I despise him because he lied and cheats and is a pain in the butt. In my company, one of the employees daughters use to babysit for Bonds and he even told me that she thinks he is a jerk. Teenagers even think so - that he pays!!!

    BigMac at least didn't lie to Congress - which I respect. Yes he didn't state the obvious, but I think his refussal to answer was his attorneys way of saying, "yes I did it".
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  14. #13
    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    Bonds is "hated" because he is a jerk.


    Bingo!
    Reds Fan Since 1971

  15. #14
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Bonds vs. Clemens

    Quote Originally Posted by steig View Post
    I believe Bonds is villified for several reasons. Mainly being that his distaste for the media and his chase after what is probably the most respected sports record. While none of us have heard undisputable proof that Bonds took steroids or HGH (leaked testimoney is the only source) it seem stupid to doubt that he didn't take some performance enhancer.

    If you don't kiss up to the media, they will do their best to bury you. Bonds has never been nice to the media - or anyone for that matter. While Clemens isn't exactly Sean Casey to the media, he gives them what they want. Also, there is a direct link to Bonds and steroids. He has even admitted taking them - unknowingly, of course. There is enough circumstantial evidence against Bonds while there is only rumor and innuendo with Clemens.
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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Bonds

    I dislike Bonds because he is a total jerk. It has NOTHING to do with the color of his skin.
    .


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