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Thread: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

  1. #1
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Okay, don't have time for a complete analysis, nor do I think anyone would want to read it, but in a nutshell, since 1969 the REDS have had a never-ending supply of solid relief pitchers to replace those that either become ineffective, get traded, or move to the starting rotation.

    Sometimes they're picked up as Free-agents (Shaw; Brantley; Weathers), most often though in trades (Franco for Landestoy; Myers for Franco; Carroll for Pappas; Power for Ramsey; Granger and (Tolan) for Pinson; Borbon for McGlothlin; Graves for Smiley; Charlton for Krenchicki; Hall for Granger; Carrasco (who was a PTBNL) for Hammond; Belisle for Mercker) and often they come up through the system (Hume; Eastwick; Dibble; Sullivan; Murphy; McEnaney; Robinson; Price; Williamson).

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/staff.shtml

    It's always dynamic, where the most consistency lasts two years, maybe three, and the closer, maybe 3 or 4 at the most.

    The REDS have always been one of the top relief groups in the league during this time...until 2004.

    The replacements were always young and usually threw the ball extremely hard, except for maybe the closer, but the key is that they were young and nearly always hadn't closed before until they became REDS.

    In 1999 they were 1st in the league.
    In 2000, 3rd,
    In 2001, 1st, (though we lost 96 games)
    In 2002, 6th,
    In 2003, 7th,
    In 2004, 15th,
    In 2005, 13th,
    In 2006, 10th,
    In 2007, 16th.

    In 2002, we still had a fairly effective Graves, Sully, Williams, and White, though as a whole they would struggle compared to what they did the three years before.

    In 2003, we now had Williamson, Riedling, Heredia, and Reitsma, but then it got ugly. Jim Bowden left and a new General Manager came in.

    In 2004, our new G.M. thought that Graves could go back to saving games after experiencing an attempt at starting, with Riedling, Norton, and Jones to set him up???? But, what was he to do? Cheapskate Carl Lindner wouldn't let him purchase anything. He couldn't trade a good player for a good closer because Lindner wouldn't let him replace that player through free-agency. You could also make a claim that the Griffey contract handcuffed him from doing anything. Bowden had Graves and Sullivan and Williamson before Lindner took over in '99.

    In 2005, the Milton signing kept us from getting a quality closer and we went to the bottom half of the free-agent market and picked up Weathers. He's been good enough to be a 6th or 7th inning pitcher, but not a closer (except for this year).

    In 2006, there was a new G.M. and a new owner. "The Trade" was supposed to net us two quality relievers that we could count on and get things back to normal, where Bray or Majewski would have been a closer". Krivsky got screwed by Bowden. Then, Krivsky took a chance on an ineffective and injury-plagued Guardado for practically nothing. Guardado plugged the hole.....for 15 games...before being shutdown Aug 20th, and eventually having Tommy John surgery. So, they were left with Weathers, Coffey, Mercker, and Belisle for the 2nd year in a row with likewise results.....horrible.

    In 2007, nobody's healthy (Majewski, Bray, Burton), so that leaves us with Weathers and Coffey again. Mercker and Belisle are replaced by Stanton and Santos. So, that's why Krivsky is trying hard to find replacements until he finds a couple of guys that will pitch well. He found one in Saarloos, but he's not a closer or setup man. He hoped to find a couple out of Stanton, Santos, Coutlangus, Mcbeth, and it may turn out that Salmon from the REDS' organization or Tyler Pelland who was just converted to reliever after 28 starts and a 3.99 ERA at Chattanooga last year. FWIW, Pelland struck out 6 in two innings of relief on Monday.

    What I see is that Krivsky has been addressing this problem for a year now, and it has been extremely difficult. I can see he's determined to have a good bullpen.

    Hume's been the bullpen coach since 1996, except for the interim time last year when Vern Ruhle was being treated for cancer. So, Hume was the bullpen coach when they were the best in the league and now at the bottom of the league. It's not him.

    I do think it will be fixed, and fixed before June comes to an end.

    Be patient, hope that we can be 40-40, and then let's make a run for the playoffs.
    Last edited by Eric_Davis; 05-09-2007 at 01:33 PM.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

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  3. #2
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Very good post. Just a couple of small corrections. The Franco trade is reversed - we got Myers for Franco. And much to my surprise, John Franco wasn't homegrown - we received him from the Dodgers for Rafael Landestoy.

    I think you're right about be patient, an apparent curse word around RZ. You've given a nice layout as to what's been wrong the last handful of years. I think we will bring it around, but it will take time.

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    You know his story Redsland's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Bowden was good at finding relievers and outfielders. It's no coincidence that the pen fell apart after he left.
    Makes all the routine posts.

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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsland View Post
    Bowden was good at finding relievers and outfielders. It's no coincidence that the pen fell apart after he left.
    Bowden, the gift that keeps on giving.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    The Reds tradition of a good bullpen actually predates 1969. Throughout most of the 1960s the Reds had a solid 'pen, with relievers such as Jim Brosnan, Bill Henry, Billy McCool, Sammy Ellis, Don Nottlebart, and Ted Abernathy.
    For 40+ seasons a solid Reds bullpen was something I just took for granted, much like lying politicians and hypocritical celebrities. Unfortunately, while we still have the latter in abundance, in recent seasons the tradition of a good Reds relief corps has vanished.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    I edited the Franco and Myers trades....thanks for your help.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

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    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    RedsBaron, I'm assuming you just dated yourself.

    Having been born in 1959 myself, I couldn't comment on those relievers before 1969. Became a REDS' fan that year.

    It is amazing how consistent that part of the franchise has always been even though they never had anyone for a significant length of time like Hoffman for the Padres, or Jones for the Tigers, or Montgomery for the Royals.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

  9. #8
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    In 2001, 1st, (though we lost 96 games)
    It's karma. The baseball gods have decided that you can have good starters or good relievers, but not both.

  10. #9
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    RedsBaron, I'm assuming you just dated yourself.

    Having been born in 1959 myself, I couldn't comment on those relievers before 1969. Became a REDS' fan that year.

    It is amazing how consistent that part of the franchise has always been even though they never had anyone for a significant length of time like Hoffman for the Padres, or Jones for the Tigers, or Montgomery for the Royals.
    Hey, I'm only 4 years older than you are!
    I became a Reds fan in 1966, which meant I began by wasting countless hours going through their 1965 stats on Topps baseball cards, and I also read a bit about some of their earlier seasons. 1967 was the year of "Dear Abby" as Ted Abernathy was the best reliever in the NL. Abernathy, Granger, Carroll, Eastwick, Franco, Brantley, Shaw....the Reds have had a parade of NL saves leaders over the last 40 seasons.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 05-09-2007 at 03:17 PM.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Bowden, the gift that keeps on giving.
    Jim Bowden bears responsibility for numerous ills, but this isn't one of them.

    Bowden put together a good to spectacular bullpen every season he was GM of the Reds, continuing a tradition that dated back to the late 1950s (as RedsBaron alluded to, it goes back to Jim Brosnan and Bill Henry). Bowden was great at reloading the pen with power arms. Bob Quinn did it before. Murray Cook before him. Bill Bergesch before him. D*ck W*gn*r before him. Bob Howsam before him. Bill DeWitt before him and Gabe Paul before him.

    The chucklehead who ended that legacy was Dan O'Brien.
    Last edited by M2; 05-10-2007 at 01:30 AM.
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Yeah but the "Williamson,Graves,Sulliven" era closed after 2003. What pieces were left? Reitsma? He would have been bashed just as greatly with his 06 collapse.

    Bowden left the cupboard bare. Blame the post-Bowden FO's for a inability to find relievers, but the blame goes several ways.

  13. #12
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: The last 38 years of Cincinnati bullpens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis View Post
    Yeah but the "Williamson,Graves,Sulliven" era closed after 2003. What pieces were left? Reitsma? He would have been bashed just as greatly with his 06 collapse.

    Bowden left the cupboard bare. Blame the post-Bowden FO's for a inability to find relievers, but the blame goes several ways.
    Jeff Shaw, Stan Belinda and Hector Carrrasco left too. Jeff Brantley and Mike Jackson left.

    Rawly Eastwick, Will McEnaney, Clay Carroll and Pedro Borbon left.

    Hell, Randy Myers, Rob Dibble and Norm Charlton left.

    The cupboard got bare plenty of times before and eight straight GMs kept the tradition going.

    Anyone with a working brain knew the franchise needed to reload the bullpen after 2003. The problem was the new general manager couldn't spot a pitcher to save himself. He also inherited a team that was 28th in HR allowed and drove it to #30 his two years on the job. His ineptitude knew no bounds.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.


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