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Thread: If someone would've said.....

  1. #1
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    If someone would've said.....

    There are many things that we all wish were going btter for this club -- and those things seem to make good fodder for discussion around here. There isn't anyone that wouldn't want the bullpen performing better and that includes Wayne Krivsky.

    Heck, I really wish that they would've won the division last year because it was there for the taking. But even Cardinal fans realize that last year was an anomaly in so many ways. I guess what I am trying to say is that from a big picture standpoint, I want to see ongoing, logical, sustainable improvement and progress with this club.

    And, if someone would've said back in the middle of February 2006, that 15 months into Wayne Krivsky's tenure the Reds would've made the following sustainable improvements, I think that most of us would've said...."I'll take that!!!"

    (1) Wayne will build a sustainable starting pitching staff that will lead or be at the top of the NL in ERA.

    (2) Wayne will lock up his top two starters in reasonable long term contracts.

    (3) Wayne will not cave in to the pressure to rush Homer Bailey -- but rather will allow him to develop at a healthy pace (see Kerry Wood for unhealthy)before bringing him to Cincinnati.

    (4) Wayne will remove two of the more ominous contracts that were looming on the horizon (Lopez and Kearns) and replace them with cheaper players who will be much more productive offensively and improve the defense at the same time.

    (5) Wayne will move and acquire players so that the overall ranking of the organization's prospects from near dead-last in all of baseball to in or right out of the top ten in all of baseball.

    (6) Wayne will acquire 1/2 of what is today's starting lineup for essentially nothing and these players will be extremely inexpensive -- Hamilton, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Conine.

    (7) Wayne will be in the financial position of having Griffey's and Milton's contracts off the books at precisely the time he has youngsters coming up to replace them from within our own system (Bailey, Votto, Bruce, Dumatrait, etc.).

    (8) Wayne will be taking logical proactive steps to improve the two greatest weaknesses of this club back in February 2006) which is incredibly thin starting pitching and poor defense.

    (9) Wayne will have a stated plan, the visable and vocal backing of the owner of the club and be pursuing it agressively.

    (10) Wayne will be working to bring pride back to Cincinnatiin both the things he says and the things he does.

    I could go on -- but I can look at that list and say "I'll take that" -- and encouragingly, it is starting to take shape.

    I own my own business and I can tell you that oftentimes the results only follow after you have been making small sustainable improvements over time. Initially the results may not even be apparent -- but in the long run, they will sustain the business through good times and bad.

    I believe Wayne Krivsky is doing a great job -- actually having done more and put more sustainable building blocks in place for this club than what any of us probably would've reasonably expected on the front end back in February 2006.

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  3. #2
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Great post.... Give Wayne some time..... Look what he has done in the short time that he has been here.

  4. #3
    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Great post. Too often fans overlook the positives. If WK fixes the bullpen we will have a good team.

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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    I agree 100%. Sports our win now and Krisvky is doing whats best for the long term not short term.

  6. #5
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    Great post.... Give Wayne some time..... Look what he has done in the short time that he has been here.
    And I don't expect him to wait long before acting on some other areas of improvement within this club.

    Won't be good enough for many folks around here -- but I cannot see how anyone can be critical with his overall body of work as it relates to rebuilding an awful mess he had inherited.

  7. #6
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote Originally Posted by peterose00 View Post
    There are many things that we all wish were going btter for this club -- and those things seem to make good fodder for discussion around here. There isn't anyone that wouldn't want the bullpen performing better and that includes Wayne Krivsky.

    Heck, I really wish that they would've won the division last year because it was there for the taking. But even Cardinal fans realize that last year was an anomaly in so many ways. I guess what I am trying to say is that from a big picture standpoint, I want to see ongoing, logical, sustainable improvement and progress with this club.

    And, if someone would've said back in the middle of February 2006, that 15 months into Wayne Krivsky's tenure the Reds would've made the following sustainable improvements, I think that most of us would've said...."I'll take that!!!"

    (1) Wayne will build a sustainable starting pitching staff that will lead or be at the top of the NL in ERA.

    (2) Wayne will lock up his top two starters in reasonable long term contracts.

    (3) Wayne will not cave in to the pressure to rush Homer Bailey -- but rather will allow him to develop at a healthy pace (see Kerry Wood for unhealthy)before bringing him to Cincinnati.

    (4) Wayne will remove two of the more ominous contracts that were looming on the horizon (Lopez and Kearns) and replace them with cheaper players who will be much more productive offensively and improve the defense at the same time.

    (5) Wayne will move and acquire players so that the overall ranking of the organization's prospects from near dead-last in all of baseball to in or right out of the top ten in all of baseball.

    (6) Wayne will acquire 1/2 of what is today's starting lineup for essentially nothing and these players will be extremely inexpensive -- Hamilton, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Conine.

    (7) Wayne will be in the financial position of having Griffey's and Milton's contracts off the books at precisely the time he has youngsters coming up to replace them from within our own system (Bailey, Votto, Bruce, Dumatrait, etc.).

    (8) Wayne will be taking logical proactive steps to improve the two greatest weaknesses of this club back in February 2006) which is incredibly thin starting pitching and poor defense.

    (9) Wayne will have a stated plan, the visable and vocal backing of the owner of the club and be pursuing it agressively.

    (10) Wayne will be working to bring pride back to Cincinnatiin both the things he says and the things he does.

    I could go on -- but I can look at that list and say "I'll take that" -- and encouragingly, it is starting to take shape.

    I own my own business and I can tell you that oftentimes the results only follow after you have been making small sustainable improvements over time. Initially the results may not even be apparent -- but in the long run, they will sustain the business through good times and bad.

    I believe Wayne Krivsky is doing a great job -- actually having done more and put more sustainable building blocks in place for this club than what any of us probably would've reasonably expected on the front end back in February 2006.
    Wayne has done some good things and some really stupid things too. I will address your points from above.

    1. Wayne only brought in two of the starting pitchers. The Arroyo trade was his biggest success and he deserves a lot of credit for it, Lohse has done well so far but few expect it to continue considering his long history of ineptitude.

    2. This one was easy and obvious and anybody would have done it. But it was still the right thing to do.

    3. This is true so far, but I think he is feeling the pressure now. It would still be way to early to bring him up. The jury is still out on this one.

    4. This was in fact his biggest mistake. He was humiliated around the league for this one. Nice try of you to attempt to sneak this failure in as a success. LOL Giving good starters away for free is generally not considered a good thing. Kearns and Lopez were still comparatively cheap. He squandered their value.

    5. Wayne only gets credit for a very small portion of improving the farm system. He has only been here for one draft. Almost all of the good prospects were here long before Krivsky came around.

    6. Hamilton and Phillips were very nice acquisitions. Ross, Hatteberg and Conine are way overpaid and way below average. 2 good and 3 bad here.

    7. Wayne is responsible for Griffey and Milton's expiring contracts, nor did he bring in any of the prospects you mentioned. This one counts as good fortune having nothing to do with Krivsky at all.

    8. Wayne should get credit for improving the starting pitching. The defense however has not improved at all since he arrived. The Reds have the second-most errors in the league and are giving up unearned runs like they are going out of style. We improved defensively at SS after Wayne overpaid for Gonzalez to fill the gaping hole left by giving away Lopez. The rest of the defense is worse than before.

    9. I have not heard any stated plan, nor have I seen a plan put into action. He makes a ton of haphazard transactions. Some work, most don't.

    10. Whatever.


    The team is in last place. 10 games out of first place already. The bullpen has fallen apart even though he spent half of last year overpaying for bullpen help. The defense is terrible. The offense is not as good as it was before he came. The starting pitching is better. So I guess he is 1 for 4.

    I think Wayne Krivsky is on increasingly thin ice. Castellini is not the type of owner to tolerate failure for very long. It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.

  8. #7
    You're being very UnDude. sonny's Avatar
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Castellini is not the type of owner to tolerate failure for very long. It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.
    I don't think Castellini is the type of owner to jump the gun either.

    As fans we feel your frustrations Atomic, but lets see this pan out a little before setting fire on someone else's observations.
    Witty signature.

  9. #8
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    For a small market team (such as the Reds) you have to give it time to rebuild the team. If the Reds get rid of Wayne before the end of his second season, we are going to have a real tough time getting a quality GM in here to be his successor. I feel that Wayne must get 3 years at a minimum to prove himself as a GM (I would actually think that 4 years is more appropriate).

    With the farm system having (what could be) 3 quality starters at AAA, our 1B of the next 7 years at AAA (if he can come out of his slump), a top 10 prospect in all of baseball for RF going to be at AA sometime this year (perfect timing for Griffey's expiring contract), and a group at low A that is just winning about every game they step on the field. In 2009 we could be watching a very young team that has a lot of upside. And still have a packed farm system to boot.

    It looks to me that Wayne's plan is to try to put a competitive team on the field without risking a very bright future by giving away our top pro prospects (I didn't consider Deno a great pro prospect). I am okay with that plan. And I will give him a chance to see if the plan actually works.

  10. #9
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMilner View Post
    For a small market team (such as the Reds) you have to give it time to rebuild the team. If the Reds get rid of Wayne before the end of his second season, we are going to have a real tough time getting a quality GM in here to be his successor. I feel that Wayne must get 3 years at a minimum to prove himself as a GM (I would actually think that 4 years is more appropriate).

    With the farm system having (what could be) 3 quality starters at AAA, our 1B of the next 7 years at AAA (if he can come out of his slump), a top 10 prospect in all of baseball for RF going to be at AA sometime this year (perfect timing for Griffey's expiring contract), and a group at low A that is just winning about every game they step on the field. In 2009 we could be watching a very young team that has a lot of upside. And still have a packed farm system to boot.

    It looks to me that Wayne's plan is to try to put a competitive team on the field without risking a very bright future by giving away our top pro prospects (I didn't consider Deno a great pro prospect). I am okay with that plan. And I will give him a chance to see if the plan actually works.
    We are only small market if the owner doesn't ante up. Small markets in baseball are increasingly becoming myths. Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee (very recent, not yet sustained), Florida. St. Louis, Minnesota, Oakland, and Houston have all had recent success and are in markets comparable to the Reds. You are only small market if you keep the mentality IMO. See Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay.

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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.

  12. #11
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote Originally Posted by sonny View Post
    I don't think Castellini is the type of owner to jump the gun either.

    As fans we feel your frustrations Atomic, but lets see this pan out a little before setting fire on someone else's observations.
    Candidly, Sonny -- I don't think he possesses the ability to NOT do that. Have you ever heard the phrase "my way or the highway" -- that is this Atomic dude.

    let's just hope he is too young to be married so this misery isn't being perpetrated on a spouse or children.

  13. #12
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote Originally Posted by hebroncougar View Post
    We are only small market if the owner doesn't ante up. Small markets in baseball are increasingly becoming myths. Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee (very recent, not yet sustained), Florida. St. Louis, Minnesota, Oakland, and Houston have all had recent success and are in markets comparable to the Reds. You are only small market if you keep the mentality IMO. See Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay.
    I agree with this statement -- and i believe Bob Castellini understands it as well.

    But I do believe that ost small market clubs have less margin for error -- which puts a punctuation mark on the fine job Wayne Krivsky is doing building a sustainable winner the right way!!!

  14. #13
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by peterose00
    There are many things that we all wish were going btter for this club -- and those things seem to make good fodder for discussion around here. There isn't anyone that wouldn't want the bullpen performing better and that includes Wayne Krivsky.

    Heck, I really wish that they would've won the division last year because it was there for the taking. But even Cardinal fans realize that last year was an anomaly in so many ways. I guess what I am trying to say is that from a big picture standpoint, I want to see ongoing, logical, sustainable improvement and progress with this club.

    And, if someone would've said back in the middle of February 2006, that 15 months into Wayne Krivsky's tenure the Reds would've made the following sustainable improvements, I think that most of us would've said...."I'll take that!!!"

    (1) Wayne will build a sustainable starting pitching staff that will lead or be at the top of the NL in ERA.

    (2) Wayne will lock up his top two starters in reasonable long term contracts.

    (3) Wayne will not cave in to the pressure to rush Homer Bailey -- but rather will allow him to develop at a healthy pace (see Kerry Wood for unhealthy)before bringing him to Cincinnati.

    (4) Wayne will remove two of the more ominous contracts that were looming on the horizon (Lopez and Kearns) and replace them with cheaper players who will be much more productive offensively and improve the defense at the same time.

    (5) Wayne will move and acquire players so that the overall ranking of the organization's prospects from near dead-last in all of baseball to in or right out of the top ten in all of baseball.

    (6) Wayne will acquire 1/2 of what is today's starting lineup for essentially nothing and these players will be extremely inexpensive -- Hamilton, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Conine.

    (7) Wayne will be in the financial position of having Griffey's and Milton's contracts off the books at precisely the time he has youngsters coming up to replace them from within our own system (Bailey, Votto, Bruce, Dumatrait, etc.).

    (8) Wayne will be taking logical proactive steps to improve the two greatest weaknesses of this club back in February 2006) which is incredibly thin starting pitching and poor defense.

    (9) Wayne will have a stated plan, the visable and vocal backing of the owner of the club and be pursuing it agressively.

    (10) Wayne will be working to bring pride back to Cincinnatiin both the things he says and the things he does.

    I could go on -- but I can look at that list and say "I'll take that" -- and encouragingly, it is starting to take shape.

    I own my own business and I can tell you that oftentimes the results only follow after you have been making small sustainable improvements over time. Initially the results may not even be apparent -- but in the long run, they will sustain the business through good times and bad.

    I believe Wayne Krivsky is doing a great job -- actually having done more and put more sustainable building blocks in place for this club than what any of us probably would've reasonably expected on the front end back in February 2006.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Wayne has done some good things and some really stupid things too. I will address your points from above.

    1. Wayne only brought in two of the starting pitchers. The Arroyo trade was his biggest success and he deserves a lot of credit for it, Lohse has done well so far but few expect it to continue considering his long history of ineptitude. You can't have it both ways -- on one hand you want to say several of these relievers have shown they obviously can't do the job because of what they have done in this short season so far, and then when a guy has done well over that same time period (Lohse) you want to say it can't continue. Isn't it possible that this bad stretch might not continue either?
    2. This one was easy and obvious and anybody would have done it. But it was still the right thing to do. Hey, Bowden sure didn't lock up Soriano and then got nothing for the guy. That was obvious too, but sometimes the obvious doesn't happen. lo at how you still can't admit that this deal of Kearns and Lopez OBVIOUSLY helped the Redsby getting AGonz and Hamilton. that's obvious to most people -- except you!!!

    3. This is true so far, but I think he is feeling the pressure now. It would still be way to early to bring him up. The jury is still out on this one. It is quite possible that Bailey might be ready now.

    4. This was in fact his biggest mistake. He was humiliated around the league for this one. Nice try of you to attempt to sneak this failure in as a success. LOL Giving good starters away for free is generally not considered a good thing. Kearns and Lopez were still comparatively cheap. He squandered their value. A shortstop who can't field his position and has seen a huge slide downward offensively before and since isn't worth as much as you might think he is. A rightfielder who can't keep his weight down and pouts -- while never fulfiling his promise before or after isn't either.
    5. Wayne only gets credit for a very small portion of improving the farm system. He has only been here for one draft. Almost all of the good prospects were here long before Krivsky came around. Knowing who to keep and who should go are both parts of the same equation. Like the Thomson kid down at Dayton that he got by dumping Kearns and Lopez.

    6. Hamilton and Phillips were very nice acquisitions. Ross, Hatteberg and Conine are way overpaid and way below average. 2 good and 3 bad here. Ross, Hatteberg and Conine are all dramtically below the league average for their positions. Your lack of knowledge is showing (again).
    7. Wayne is responsible for Griffey and Milton's expiring contracts, nor did he bring in any of the prospects you mentioned. This one counts as good fortune having nothing to do with Krivsky at all. One of Krivsky's strength is roster management which includes dealing with contracts that are renewing or not. It was brilliant to dump Kearns and FELO right before they got big raises.
    8. Wayne should get credit for improving the starting pitching. You got that right!!! The defense however has not improved at all since he arrived. The Reds have the second-most errors in the league and are giving up unearned runs like they are going out of style. 34 game sample size -- are you not venturing out at all this summer because it has been a bit chilly here prior to Memorial Day??? We improved defensively at SS after Wayne overpaid for Gonzalez to fill the gaping hole left by giving away Lopez. The rest of the defense is worse than before. Hamilton is an improvement over Kearns in right or Junior in center. AGonz is infinately better than FELO at SS, Phillips is better than Freel at 2B, Ross is better than LaRue at C.
    9. I have not heard any stated plan, nor have I seen a plan put into action. He makes a ton of haphazard transactions. Some work, most don't. Arroyo worked, Ross worked, Phillips worked, Lohse worked, Hamilton worked. AGonz has worked. The starting pitching is the best in the league. The bullpen is still broken.

    10. Whatever.
    Indeed!!!

    The team is in last place. 10 games out of first place already. Even Jim Bowden gave Tony perez 44 games before he unceremoniously dumped the Big Doggie. The Reds have played 34 games -- let's not declare that the sky is falling just yet. The bullpen has fallen apart even though he spent half of last year overpaying for bullpen help. The defense is terrible. The offense is not as good as it was before he came. The starting pitching is better. So I guess he is 1 for 4. Your "sample" size of 34 games to come to those conclusions is amusing.
    I think Wayne Krivsky is on increasingly thin ice. Castellini is not the type of owner to tolerate failure for very long. Krivsky is building a sustainable winner with a vision that is consistent with Castellini -- Krivsky is in no danger whatsoever. It is time for Wayne to improve this team or step aside.
    My responses are in bold above...

  15. #14
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Quote Originally Posted by hebroncougar View Post
    We are only small market if the owner doesn't ante up. Small markets in baseball are increasingly becoming myths. Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee (very recent, not yet sustained), Florida. St. Louis, Minnesota, Oakland, and Houston have all had recent success and are in markets comparable to the Reds. You are only small market if you keep the mentality IMO. See Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay.
    i hate to burst your bubble, but Houston is not a small market club these days. It has about 5 million people, roughly 2.5 times Cincinnati's Metro Tri State Population.

  16. #15
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    Re: If someone would've said.....

    Like the team, Wayne is middling. As M2 said in a different thread, he seems to have an eye for finding talent where no one else is looking, but he also has some characteristics that leave one shaking their head. I agree that Wayne needs more than 2 years to prove himself, but I'm not ready to say he is building a sustainable winner. Heck, his two most productive offensive players (Dunn and Jr.) might be gone by THIS All-Star break. There's still a long, long way to go before the Reds are a sustained winner, and the jury is definately still deliberating on whether Wayne is the man to take them there.


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