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Thread: EE & Defense

  1. #16
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Razor is guilty of trying to inject logic into the thread. Shame.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Ee

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    I guess I choose not to believe that Narron hates Edwin and was intentionally trying to mess with EE so he could have a reason to send him to AAA. I guess Narron's on cruise control now. He accomplished his goal 6 weeks into the season, everything else is just icing on the cake.
    I don't think Narron is stupid enough to impair his own success by doing the things you suggest. I just think he handles young players poorly and there could well be personal(personality, language, or other) issues effecting their relationship. Some people just have better rapport than others. Did you ever have a teacher or a boss you just didn't get along with for no particular reason?

  4. #18
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    Re: EE & Defense

    By young players, I can only assume you mean Encarnacion.

    Any complaints on how he's handled Phillips? or Hamilton? Coffey? Lohse? or Belisle?
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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  5. #19
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    By young players, I can only assume you mean Encarnacion.

    Any complaints on how he's handled Phillips? or Hamilton? Coffey? Lohse? or Belisle?

    Yes. In general I think he's shown undue preference for aging vets over younger players. Think Lopez, Kearns, Deno

    Hamilton is the one exception. That probably because of a combination of Hamilton's obvious talent and his long time relationship with Narrons' brother.
    Last edited by Stingray; 05-11-2007 at 04:20 PM.

  6. #20
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    Yes. In general I think he's shown undue preference for aging vets over younger players.

    Hamilton is the one exception. A combination, I think, of his obvious talant and Hamilton's long time relationship with Narrons' brother.

    Phillips is an exception too. He could have kept playing Womack or put Freel there but he put Phillips in there. I think Narron is OK with young players if they are "fully formed". That is, if they are the kind of players that don't make a lot of mistakes - especially in the field. Hamilton's like that and so is Phillips. EE, not so much. Maybe Narron doesn't have the patience for EE's growing pains. Of course Wayne brought in both Hamilton and Phillips and while it's not like they don't deserve to be playing regularly, it's bad form not to play the guys your boss brought in.
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  7. #21
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    Yes. In general I think he's shown undue preference for aging vets over younger players. Think Lopez, Kearns, Deno

    Hamilton is the one exception. That probably because of a combination of Hamilton's obvious talent and his long time relationship with Narrons' brother.
    Lopez? Kearns? Before the trade last year they were both playing everyday.

  8. #22
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    Lopez? Kearns? Before the trade last year they were both playing everyday.
    Earlier in their careers.

  9. #23
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    Earlier in their careers.
    Earlier in their careers? Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Narron named the manager late in June of '05? Lopez had 590 ABs in 2005. What aging veteran was Narron giving "undue preference" to?

    After Kearns got back in July of '05 he also played everyday. I'm sorry but you can't use Kearns and Lopez as examples.

  10. #24
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    Earlier in their careers? Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Narron named the manager late in June of '05? Lopez had 590 ABs in 2005. What aging veteran was Narron giving "undue preference" to?

    After Kearns got back in July of '05 he also played everyday. I'm sorry but you can't use Kearns and Lopez as examples.

    Frankly, I feel we're going in circles here. It's pretty clear those who like the move aren't going to convince those who don't and vice versa.

    I think I've expressed all the reasons I don't like the move here and on other threads. I have little more to offer on this subject so I'm going to try hard to move on to other matters.
    Last edited by Stingray; 05-11-2007 at 05:08 PM.

  11. #25
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    F
    What does that mean?

  12. #26
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    What does that mean?
    I pushed enter by mistake after I typed the first letter.

    Sorry.

  13. #27
    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    Frankly, I feel we're going in circles here. It's pretty clear those who like the move aren't going to convince those who don't and vice versa.

    I think I've expressed all the reasons I don't like the move here and on other threads. I have little more to offer on this subject so I'm going to try hard to move on to other matters.
    Well you haven't read very many of my posts. I have posted that I would rather they had not sent EE down, but I understand the move. I just don't believe that Narron sent EE down because he has a personal issue with him.

    But I thought we were discussing your statement where you said that Narron handles young players poorly and gives undue preference to aging vets over them. Then you proceeded to try to prove your point by using examples of players where that was not the case.

  14. #28
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    Re: EE & Defense

    IIRC, Adam Dunn sat against a pitcher that he has a poor record against. I just can't remember who it was.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

  15. #29
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    I think I've expressed all the reasons I don't like the move here and on other threads.
    And respectfully - your reasons have pretty much been refuted too. And Narron was not the Red's manager in the "early days" of Lopez and Kearn's career.

    And have you read Krivsky and Narron's public statements on EE's demotion? Both have made very positive and encouraging statement to EE about how they want him back and an intrical part of the Red's future. But the ball is in EE's court in that department.
    Last edited by GAC; 05-13-2007 at 09:28 AM.
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  16. #30
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    And respectfully - your reasons have pretty much been refuted too. And Narron was not the Red's manager in the "early days" of Lopez and Kearn's career.

    And have you read Krivsky and Narron's public statements on EE's demotion? Both have made very positive and encouraging statement to EE about how they want him back and an intrical part of the Red's future. But the ball is in EE's court in that department.

    I'm surprised by the depth of support for Narron & WK on the way they handled EE's option and young players in general. I'll make a final try to clear up my position on this mess and then I'm moving on. The last thing I want to do is become involved in an endless agrument with guys whose opinion I respect over what is really a subjective judgement(Narron & WK handling of young players - Salmon is the latest example).


    1. My position is best summarized by my first post, in a different thread, after EE was optioned:

    If handled properly, going to AAA for a short time could benefit both for EE and the Reds. The problem is Narron(& K?) seem more intent on showing up EE than they do in helping him. Don't wait for him to make a critical error and option him the next day. Talk privately to him, tell him he's pressing and he's going to be optioned so he can relax and get back in his groove and you expect him to be back soon.. Tell him he going to start a few more games so the move doesn't have a punitive feel to it. Then option him.

    In any business, if you expect respect from the people working for you, you have to show them respect.

    2. The following quote from the thread "Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky" best summarizes my feeling about the way EE has been handled:


    "Having followed the Twins closely during his time as assistant general manager, I was curious to see how Wayne Krivsky would fare after taking over the Reds last year. There have been some bright spots, like trading for Bronson Arroyo and giving Josh Hamilton a chance, but for the most part he's been underwhelming. For the years the Twins have valued veteran mediocrity over young talent, and it's obvious now that Krivsky was a driving force behind that.

    His latest decision along those lines came Thursday, when Edwin Encarnacion was demoted to Triple-A after making two costly errors in Wednesday's game. Despite putting up excellent minor-league numbers and hitting .276 with an .832 OPS in his first full season last year, the 24-year-old Encarnacion has been yanked in and out of the Reds' lineup constantly based on a bad defensive play or a few hitless games (when they aren't too busy criticizing Adam Dunn)."


    3. Finally regarding your bolded comment. I don't recall seeing a comment from Narron on this subject, but, I feel WK's public comment critical of EE was negative in tone and made a toxic situation worse.
    Last edited by Stingray; 05-13-2007 at 12:40 PM.


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