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Thread: EE & Defense

  1. #31
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    The problem is Narron(& K?) seem more intent on showing up EE than they do in helping him. Don't wait for him to make a critical error and option him the next day. Talk privately to him.....
    Huh?

    They gave him the starting position at 3B. He started a goodly number of those games at 3B. Even after several errors and horrable at bats they continued to stick with Edwin. 31 games and 101 at bats to be specific.

    Edwin has less than 1 full year of performance at 3B. Yet they GAVE him the starting position this year. How many other players in the Reds orginization have less than a full years experience at their position, yet have been given a starting role? Not many. How much more do folks want? Retire his number? Make him a captain? Hold a parade in his honor?

    And the talk privatley stuff.....you really think they hadn't tried that yet? Narron isn't my favorite coach, but I'm going out on a limb and suggest that "talking to Edwin before resorting to sending him down" probably crossed his mind.

    I'm stunned that people are this worked up over something that happens so commonly in baseball. When did it become a federal law that once a player came up he could never be sent back down again, no matter how lousy his play, how many errors he committed, and how much his head was obviously not in the game?
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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  3. #32
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    Don't wait for him to make a critical error and option him the next day.
    It didn't have anything to do with a single error. It had everything to do with a pattern of poor defense that EE had displayed this season and last, coupled with some poor numbers at the plate.

    EE has only been in Louisville for a few days and he' already committed 3 errors......2 in today's game. He's where he needs to be in order to work on his current issues. This idea that Narron is trying to show him up is just plain hogwash.

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    Re: EE & Defense

    My thoughts, as posted in another thread:

    My impression is that EE is a fairly sensitive young man. He's 24 years old, from another country, speaking a second language. He proved last year that he can play at the big league level and deserves to be here. Yet despite that, Narron jerked him around with benchings and criticism.

    Bring up the curtain on the '07 season. EE gets off to a slow start, gets singled out by Narron, gets benched periodically (while Phillips and Ross, who also started slow, continue to play). You can almost see him withdraw into a shell and his confidence shrink with each game. This is a guy that needs to be told he can do it, not that he should sit down because he made a mistake. This is a guy that that needs to be supported rather than wacked on the knuckles with a ruler everytime he stumbles.

    So here ya' are, a struggleing team in need of a power right-handed bat and not many options. So, what do ya' do? Ya' send out the one guy with the potential to fill that need precisely at the time when he's starting to hit the ball. Brilliant! And as a bonus, you've probably discouraged him even more.

    I'm a Reds fan through and through but there are times that I can only shake my head and wonder why. This is one of them.

    Rem

  5. #34
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    Re: EE & Defense

    It never ceases to amaze me how everyone on Redszone thinks they understand EE, his supposed sensitivity, the reasons for his being benched occasionally, his reaction to benching, etc. I haven't heard anyone say they have actual knowledge of this situation. It's a lot of conjecture.

    What we do know is that the Reds chose to play EE as a "semi-regular" with a lot of days on the bench. We also know that last season, for a few months, this worked fine and he hit very well. He did have trouble throwing.

    Then, in late August, along with other teammates, he slumped. Unlike guys like Dunn, however, EE did not snap out of that slump in 2007. His throwing continued to, let's say, need some work.

    Now that he is in AAA, I'm reading on here that it's Narron's fault that he has supposedly lost confidence and is still making errors. Based on what information?

    What I see is a young guy who has terrific talent but who still needs offensive and defensive work. All this talk about demoting the one righty power hitter ignores that since late August he hasn't displayed that power.

    Keeping EE in the spotlight to continue making errors and struggling at the plate would have been the cruel way to handle this. He is now back in a low keyed environment and has the chance to get this moving positively again.
    Last edited by Kc61; 05-14-2007 at 12:59 AM.

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    Re: EE & Defense

    My opinion is based upon my observations. If that doesn't match your observations, that's fine with me but you haven't presented any 'information' yourself. I simply disagree with you but I don't hold that against you. (No hard feelings, shrug .)

    So we have divergent viewpoints---big deal. That's what a board like this is setup to offer. Pick and choose.

    I just know that if I were the manager/gm I would have handled it differently. (shrug)

    Love that Kepplinger/Castro platoon, BTW.

    Rem
    Last edited by remdog; 05-14-2007 at 01:19 AM.

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    Re: EE & Defense

    dbl post
    Last edited by GAC; 05-14-2007 at 09:34 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  8. #37
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    The problem is Narron(& K?) seem more intent on showing up EE than they do in helping him.
    What evidence do you have of them trying to show him up? That's basically saying you believe they don't like him and want him to fail all along. If that were the case, then he wouldn't have ever been promoted and be on this team. GMs/managers make those types of decisions every day.

    I guess the question is, as a GM and/or manager - "How long do you allow a young player to struggle and show inconsistency before you intervene and make a move such as sending them back down?"

    EE is not an established ballplayer who has been in the league a few years and is simply going through a slump or bad spell. Last year was is first full year at being given that opportunity. Who gave him that opportunity? And it had it's "ups and downs", and mainly had to do with his defense, though he did have some offensive lapses as well. This team has betn over backwards to work with this kid, while on the ML roster, to improve his defense. When do you expect to see some sort of progress?


    Don't wait for him to make a critical error and option him the next day. Talk privately to him, tell him he's pressing and he's going to be optioned so he can relax and get back in his groove and you expect him to be back soon.. Tell him he going to start a few more games so the move doesn't have a punitive feel to it. Then option him.
    How do you know they hadn't been talking to EE during this whole process? We don't know what all is being said behind the scenes and in that clubhouse.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  9. #38
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    Re: EE & Defense

    I'm curious to how optioning EE the day after he commits 2 errors is going to make his defense better. Then, he gets benched in AAA the day after he commits 2 errors.

    How is this a good way for him to learn? How much pressure to want to put on him about his defense?
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  10. #39
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    I'm curious to how optioning EE the day after he commits 2 errors is going to make his defense better. Then, he gets benched in AAA the day after he commits 2 errors.

    How is this a good way for him to learn?
    Likely it's a responce to his inability/refusal to learn, rather than an effort to help him learn.

    It's obvious that the team wants him to improve his defense. Yet, here we are a year later discussing Edwins inability to catch and (more often than not) throw a ball. Zero improvement.

    Either (1) he's so mentally fragile that asking him to improve in a certian area causes him to lock up (2) he's so mentally fragile that asking him to improve in a certinan area causes him to get mad, pout and dig his heals in (3) he just can't catch and throw a ball (4) he's got some hidden injury that is nagging at him

    Make it about Narron and everybody else that comes in contact with Edwin. Fact is, Edwin's the one who can get himself out of AAA jail.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  11. #40
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    I'm curious to how optioning EE the day after he commits 2 errors is going to make his defense better. Then, he gets benched in AAA the day after he commits 2 errors.
    I don't believe he was benched soley because of the 2 errors on that particular day. It was the last straw so to speak, but it has been accumulative.

    They worked extensively with him last year - and EE himself worked very hard too - at improving his 3B defense.

    At the current rate he was going, he projected out to 35 errors by the end of the '07 season. Would you be content with that? Should management, or the manager, be content with that, and just simply say "Play him. He'll grow out of it." How do you they know that? Based on what? Certainly not his previous performance.

    Saying a player has an "upside" is no better then saying "they play the game the right way." It means very little. Bottomline - performance on that field is the determining factor.

    EE's errors are not due to a lack of talent, but recurring mental mistakes. But he's making the same ones over and over again.


    How is this a good way for him to learn? How much pressure to want to put on him about his defense?
    No ballplayer likes to be sent down. But how do you know the pressure placed upon him by so many fans, who have built this kid up, wasn't weighing on him at the ML level and contributing to his struggles?

    The bottomline is - he was struggling badly, and it had gotten to the point where it was past the approach of "It's just a slump and he'll play himself out of it."

    Again - we're talking about a young player here who has had only one full year in the majors. Not an established one.

    How much pressure? That's up to EE as far as I'm concerned. The game of baseball is about pressure. Players face it every day. Some accept and overcome it. Others do not. What category is EE in? Don't know. But I do know that everyone, including management, is behind this kid and want him to succeed. Why wouldn't they?
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    Love that Kepplinger/Castro platoon, BTW.

    Rem
    I don't think nobody, including this management, likes it one bit.

    There is no way that Narron and/or Krivsky want to see Castro at 3B for any extended period of time. He's a "lump in the throat" alternative due to the present situation (or crisis) with EE right now. They know they have a problem, and right now they have no other alternatives at 3B because they were counting on this young kid to be that answer.

    But I discovered one thing, if anything, about Krivsky... he wants a strong defense. And regardless what people say/think abut Castro - his defense/glove right now is far better then EE's in most people's opinion, while also realizing he's a utility player at best.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    But I discovered one thing, if anything, about Krivsky... he wants a strong defense.
    No argument. Although I wonder how Sceff Coberg rates out defensively. I'm not a scout and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn Express last night, but it seems he/they rarely make error saving types of plays. Anyone else believe that a decent firstbaseman would have caught EEs long one bounce throw the other day. Maybe the angle I saw was deceiving, but it looked pretty catchable to me.

    I still think the best way to help a young infielder relax is to pair him with a firstbaseman that will pick him up from time to time.

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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I don't think nobody, including this management, likes it one bit.

    There is no way that Narron and/or Krivsky want to see Castro at 3B for any extended period of time. He's a "lump in the throat" alternative due to the present situation (or crisis) with EE right now. They know they have a problem, and right now they have no other alternatives at 3B because they were counting on this young kid to be that answer.

    But I discovered one thing, if anything, about Krivsky... he wants a strong defense. And regardless what people say/think abut Castro - his defense/glove right now is far better then EE's in most people's opinion, while also realizing he's a utility player at best.
    I don't agree that Castro's glove is better than EE's. EE's range is far better and that more than makes up for his throwing errors. I think EE's fielding(with all his warts) is better, at third, than anyone else on the team.

  15. #44
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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I don't think nobody, including this management, likes it one bit.

    There is no way that Narron and/or Krivsky want to see Castro at 3B for any extended period of time. He's a "lump in the throat" alternative due to the present situation (or crisis) with EE right now. They know they have a problem, and right now they have no other alternatives at 3B because they were counting on this young kid to be that answer.

    But I discovered one thing, if anything, about Krivsky... he wants a strong defense. And regardless what people say/think abut Castro - his defense/glove right now is far better then EE's in most people's opinion, while also realizing he's a utility player at best.
    No worries. The Reds fixed it---they got rid of Kepplinger.

    And, BTW, Stingray is right, Edwin has better range at third. EE's main problem is getting the ball over to first---which is something that's easier to correct than an inability to catch the ball.

    Rem

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    Re: EE & Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    And, BTW, Stingray is right, Edwin has better range at third. EE's main problem is getting the ball over to first---which is something that's easier to correct than an inability to catch the ball.

    Rem
    Quote Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
    I don't agree that Castro's glove is better than EE's. EE's range is far better and that more than makes up for his throwing errors. I think EE's fielding(with all his warts) is better, at third, than anyone else on the team.
    I guess what I am trying to say guys is that while Castro may not have the range of EE, I believe he is more sure-handed and makes better decisions after fielding the ball. He is not a statue at 3B, nor prone to the frequent mental mistakes we have been seeing out of EE (which I do believe is simply due to the kid really pressing). And I don't say that because I want the guy to be a starter - because I don't.

    You're not going to see the level of mental mistakes by Castro, as opposed to what we are seeing by EE.

    But you are absolutely right rem when you say....

    "EE's main problem is getting the ball over to first---which is something that's easier to correct than an inability to catch the ball."

    Catching the ball is only half the job.

    If it is easier to correct then why hasn't EE shown any progress in this particular area? Again - we were looking at him possibly comitting 30+ errors this year at 3B at the rate he was going. Especially since this coaching staff, both on the big league and minor league level, have invested so much time in working with him? And I also want to note that EE himself has also worked hard in this area to try and improve. I give the kid credit in that aspect.

    But it should also be noted that EE himself credits Castro with being instrumental last year in helping him. Maybe that's it! Castro screwed with the kid in order to get his job!

    But the bottomline is - I think this management wants very much for this kid to succeed. But when they see a young ballplayer struggling on both sides of his game, and they see it could very well be due to his psyche/emotional aspect, then something needed to be down.
    Last edited by GAC; 05-16-2007 at 05:07 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations


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