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Thread: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

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    Winning the Human Race TheBigLebowski's Avatar
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    Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    The opinion that an EE deal may be in the offing is starting to spread.

    I know this guy's not exactly Peter Gammons or Seth Everett but, I found this interesting nonetheless:

    "* Having followed the Twins closely during his time as assistant general manager, I was curious to see how Wayne Krivsky would fare after taking over the Reds last year. There have been some bright spots, like trading for Bronson Arroyo and giving Josh Hamilton a chance, but for the most part he's been underwhelming. For the years the Twins have valued veteran mediocrity over young talent, and it's obvious now that Krivsky was a driving force behind that.

    His latest decision along those lines came Thursday, when Edwin Encarnacion was demoted to Triple-A after making two costly errors in Wednesday's game. Despite putting up excellent minor-league numbers and hitting .276 with an .832 OPS in his first full season last year, the 24-year-old Encarnacion has been yanked in and out of the Reds' lineup constantly based on a bad defensive play or a few hitless games (when they aren't too busy criticizing Adam Dunn).

    Because of that it's no surprise that the team has taken the extreme step of sending him back to the minors with 810 big-league plate appearances under his belt, but it's still a misguided move. Encarnacion has shown that he can hit and, while error-prone, his defense at third base has been good enough to make him one of the team's best players. Yet much like Austin Kearns last year, he seems destined to leave via trade, almost surely for a lesser return in terms of overall talent.

    Whether Encarnacion is dealt or simply remains at Triple-A, Ryan Freel figures to step in at third base. Whatever you think of Encarnacion, Freel has proven that he deserves everyday playing time and is capable of 40-plus steals if given 500 at-bats. Freel working exclusively at third base also means that Hamilton is now a starter in the outfield. That gives him a big value boost, but he's in a 0-for-12 slump and the extra at-bats could expedite his trip back down to earth."

    Link to the entire article:
    http://www.rotoworld.com/content/fea...&article=28206
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    If Krivsky trades EE in a Kearns/Lopez type fashion...

    * Edited by an administrator

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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    That's classic, comparing Dunn's hitting to EE.

    Dunn is a proven .900 OPS guy currently sporting a near 1.000 OPS.

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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    That's classic, comparing Dunn's hitting to EE.

    Dunn is a proven .900 OPS guy currently sporting a near 1.000 OPS.

    I don't think he's necessarily doing that even though that is what the context looks like. I think what he's saying is that the organization isn't high on players who have flaws - especially on defense.
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    . I think what he's saying is that the organization isn't high on players who have flaws - especially on defense.

    This organization isn't high on young players who have flaws. I guess the logic being vets might improve but young players won't?

    Doesn't make sense to me but WK and JN know what they are doing.

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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc D View Post
    This organization isn't high on young players who have flaws. I guess the logic being vets might improve but young players won't?

    True.
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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc D View Post
    This organization isn't high on young players who have flaws. I guess the logic being vets might improve but young players won't?

    Doesn't make sense to me but WK and JN know what they are doing.
    All players have flaws. The advantage a smart vet has is that he knows what his flaw is, and how to minimize it effecting the outcome of an AB, a pitch or a game.

    Vets aren't going to really improve their game a whole lot; they're going to play smarter and more efficiently (well, at least the smart ones are!).

    But a young player can improve, and will not always play to the back of their baseball card.

    Look at our 1B, Sceff Coberg. We know what to expect of him, almost exactly. And you also know that due to age, he's going to regress 5-10% a year, bell curve and all. There's no way this guy can improve his game; he can only play smarter, while his physical skills are in decline.

    But then look at a first basemen (at least part time) struggled mightily, for some years, early on, and but actually improved his game:

    David Ortiz: http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/ortizda01.shtml

    Obviously, Ortiz is an extreme example, but makes my point.

    The advantage of playing vets is that they're pretty much a known quantity; when you rely on vets, the youngsters are your safety net, in case the vets fail miserably.

    Youngsters are more of a gamble, but sometimes you'll get better than you think you're getting- Brandon Phillips is a good case in point here, IMO. If you get rid of the vets and go with the kids, you are also losing your safety net- because if the youngsters turn out to be really bad, then there is nowhere else to go.

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    If EE were a player on the fringe, trying to break into am open spot...its one thing...but..

    EE had the job wrapped up since last year. He started the seaon as the team's CLEANUP HITTER (vs. LH..5th vs RH).

    It's not like they (management, FO) hadn't gotten a "good look" at him. They knew (or should have known) what the package was.

    Either they were wrong about him THEN or they are wrong about him NOW.
    (I vote for now).
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    Youngsters are more of a gamble, but sometimes you'll get better than you think you're getting- Brandon Phillips is a good case in point here, IMO. If you get rid of the vets and go with the kids, you are also losing your safety net- because if the youngsters turn out to be really bad, then there is nowhere else to go.

    Well in our specific case the vets sure aren't getting it done. As a fan the kids at least give you hope. I know you have to watch the arb clocks and all but you also have to keep fans interested. Thats the rational I've been given as to why you can't just do a marlins style tear down and rebuild so I don't see why it can't work both ways.

    For me personally, there is nothing as depressing as watching the Juan Castro's of the world flail away knowing thats all they have when a kid like EE is sent back to the minors. I'm not trying to rehash that topic, the same example could be made with Santos and Salmon.

    If given the choice between certain doom and almost certain doom, I'm choosing the almost package.

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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    If EE were a player on the fringe, trying to break into am open spot...its one thing...but..

    EE had the job wrapped up since last year. He started the seaon as the team's CLEANUP HITTER (vs. LH..5th vs RH).

    It's not like they (management, FO) hadn't gotten a "good look" at him. They knew (or should have known) what the package was.

    Either they were wrong about him THEN or they are wrong about him NOW.
    (I vote for now).
    They chose Eddie over both Joe Randa and Rich Aurilia.

    I think this club really wants and needs Eddie to be able to play a steady 3B. I hope he can do it because it would solve a lot of problems. But every throw can't be an adventure- and it wasn't in April, he was rock steady in his throws for the month. May though...

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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc D View Post
    Well in our specific case the vets sure aren't getting it done. As a fan the kids at least give you hope. I know you have to watch the arb clocks and all but you also have to keep fans interested. Thats the rational I've been given as to why you can't just do a marlins style tear down and rebuild so I don't see why it can't work both ways.

    For me personally, there is nothing as depressing as watching the Juan Castro's of the world flail away knowing thats all they have when a kid like EE is sent back to the minors. I'm not trying to rehash that topic, the same example could be made with Santos and Salmon.

    If given the choice between certain doom and almost certain doom, I'm choosing the almost package.
    FWIW, I think that Eddie was sent down only to regain confidence, and get his head together; I expect him to be back soon.

    And I also think he's a guy that can improve the only major flaw in his game- throwing the ball to 1B. His glove and range are top-notch, his erratic throws are downright demoralizing to the entire team.

    I also agree with you re: Castro and Santos- especially Juan Castro, who actually has been one of my favorites. I know, I know, but the only way to be one of the worst hitters in history with at least 2000 AB's to be good enough to be around for 2000 AB's! Castro is a luxury that this team cannot afford- a glove guy only. I think they kept him around only to back-up and coach both EE and Lopez, both of whom were/are erratic in the field.

    I think EdE will be back soon enough, Castro gone (hopefully to coach in the Reds system) and Keppinger in the utility role.

    Santos is intriguing to me, though. A failure as a SP, but maybe more valuable in the long relief/ middle relief role. He's pitched fairly well (I know, high WHIP), and has a small contract. Is he holding anyone back, who should be here? Maybe Majewski, but ... he'll back for another audition soon enough. Santos has actually show me he has a better idea of how to pitch than Burton or Salmon has (not that they can't learn). They throw harder, so are more appealing to most, I understand that. But they don't throw hard enough to get by with just throwing hard- even Rob Dibble had a devastating slider to go with that 100 mph heater.

    edit- I also think Santos saved his job, at least for the time being, with the outing last night. Just by virtue of possibly being in the way of good young talent, his job will always be at some risk. He's walking way too many guys. Walks and throwing errors are something that drive Narron wild...
    Last edited by Always Red; 05-13-2007 at 02:14 PM.

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    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigLebowski View Post
    "* Having followed the Twins closely during his time as assistant general manager, I was curious to see how Wayne Krivsky would fare after taking over the Reds last year. There have been some bright spots, like trading for Bronson Arroyo and giving Josh Hamilton a chance, but for the most part he's been underwhelming. For the years the Twins have valued veteran mediocrity over young talent, and it's obvious now that Krivsky was a driving force behind that.
    Welcome to our world. Makes the future look great, doesn't it??

    Encarnacion has shown that he can hit and, while error-prone, his defense at third base has been good enough to make him one of the team's best players. Yet much like Austin Kearns last year, he seems destined to leave via trade, almost surely for a lesser return in terms of overall talent.
    Unfortunately, this is something I have feared for awhile and thought I was just being a "sky is falling" guy. The fact that someone else thought of it scares me a lot.

    Whether Encarnacion is dealt or simply remains at Triple-A, Ryan Freel figures to step in at third base. Whatever you think of Encarnacion, Freel has proven that he deserves everyday playing time and is capable of 40-plus steals if given 500 at-bats. Freel working exclusively at third base also means that Hamilton is now a starter in the outfield. That gives him a big value boost, but he's in a 0-for-12 slump and the extra at-bats could expedite his trip back down to earth."
    I think this is the beginning of us seeing a plan. It makes a lot of sense to me that Krivsky and Narron would value Freel over Encarnacion. The "kid" is moved so that Freel can be in the game to bat leadoff and Hamilton can roam centerfield. Narron (and maybe Krivsky) think that is the best lineup. Better defense so that things like happened with Eddie at third won't happen again.

    Of course, it's all a guess, but it does make some sense. Krivsky (or his boss Terry) always did value old guys to build their teams. It was cheap and you had that all-important "veteran presence". That appears to be the plan in Cincinnati. You sign Hatteberg. You sign Conine. He was convinced Royce Clayton was an improvement over FeLo at short. The pitching staff has veterans Mike Stanton, David Weathers (just signed to an extention), Santos, had Cromier (who he also signed to an extention before he threw the first pitch as a Red), and is probably scouring the clubs for veterans right now. Not that prospects are fool-proof, we all know that only a small percentage make it, or that veteran presence is always bad. It's not, but it's the quality of the veterans you get that matter. While Krivsky has looked brilliant in getting Arroyo and Phillips and taking a chance on Hamilton, everytime he brings in another retread, he reminds me of the Bowden years. The difference is that Krivsky spends real money on his retreads with extended contracts. Oh to have the millions wasted on Cromier, Stanton, Castro, and others. It might not put us in the free agent market for some pitching, but it wouldn't hurt.

    IF this is the future of this franchise under Krivsky, we are in a race for last place in this division for a long time.
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    FWIW, I think that Eddie was sent down only to regain confidence, and get his head together; I expect him to be back soon.
    Go ask Brandon Phillips what it is like to get sent down after being a full time player. It didn't help him clear his head or regain confidence, it did the exact opposite.
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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    What Krivsky does is overvalue players like Castro and Freel thus undervaluing the more talented, raw EE.

    What he should be doing is hire somebody that goes against that instinct(aka the manager) giving him further perspectives. EE needs somebody to champion him.

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    Re: Rotoworlld.com's aaron Gleeman on EE, Krivsky

    I know what to expect out of Jeff Conine and Juan Castro: OUTS. BOATLOADS OF OUTS.
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