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Thread: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

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    Reds 5:11 coachw513's Avatar
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    Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    I didn't see it being specifically discussed...I'm a fan of Narron the man, and have never been on the "Fire Narron" bus that has been running around RZ for quite some time...that being said, the sad truth and reality of the Reds malaise hits home in this article...

    THIS TEAM (with its lack of dominant clubhouse personality like Greg Vaughn, with its average overall talent, with its somewhat poorly constructed roster, with its apparent dark cloud of doubt and effort-related issues) is better served going in a different direction, I'm afraid to say...

    Column below...comments??

    From 60 feet, 6 inches, Greg Maddux still can throw an 86 mile-an-hour fastball that hits the head of a pin. His show against the Reds on Monday night was straight out of 1995. But címon. Madduxís ERA last year was 4.61. His record since 2005 is 31-31. Heís 41 years old.

    Madduxís utter domination of Cincinnatiís hitters Monday night had as much to do with the Reds as it did with Maddux. About the only thing Reds batters didnít do was bring white flags to the plate and wave them.

    Itís not that the Reds are losing. Itís how. With every loss, a little life leaves them.


    The perception builds that this isnít just a rut; itís the road. To beat a guy like Maddux, you have to take your brain and your will with you to the plate. On Monday, the Reds did neither. Maybe because each is in short supply.

    Itís not all Jerry Narronís fault his team had lost 11 of 13 before Tuesdayís game. It is 100 percent his problem. Talk all you like about Narronís musical-chairs lineups, his lefty-righty obsessions and the way he uses his horrible bullpen. Those are ripples in his ocean of issues.

    Hereís the big wave: Players don't respond to him.

    Thatís it. The best any manager can do is create an atmosphere where his players want to come to work every day prepared to win. Do you see that in this team?

    Baseball is a six-month, daily mind-bender. Someone needs to keep the attitudes right. In some cases, itís the manager, out of respect or fear, or both: Lou Piniella, Jim Leyland, Joe Torre, Tony La Russa, to name a few. If youíre not in that group, youíd better have a veteran player or two to run your clubhouse. Narron doesnít.

    This team lacks urgency. Itís passive. It drifts. Itís in big need of a foot in the rear. Narron isnít that kind of guy.

    It was telling, after Narron embarrassed Edwin Encarnacion mid-game more than a month ago, for a perceived lack of hustle, that no player came to the managerís defense. Instead, what you heard privately in the clubhouse was that Encarnacion didnít see the popup heíd hit, thought it was out of play and shouldnít have been made an example of. The first time any player has offered a defense of Narron came from Ryan Freel, before Mondayís loss.

    Maybe the Reds will rally on the rest of the current road trip and return home with some momentum for an eight-game homestand against two beatable teams, Washington and Pittsburgh. I hope so, for Narronís sake. The Reds have had 10 managers in the 19 years Iíve been here. Only Piniella and Davey Johnson put a powerful, personal stamp on their teamsí performances. The rest were in the spot Narronís in now. None survived it.

    Players get managers fired. General managers get managers fired. Fans who stop coming to the games get managers fired. About the only thing Jerry Narron can do now is exactly what he has been doing, and thatís not good enough.

    If heíd had more clubhouse leadership . . . if heíd had more star players with forceful personalities . . . if his own personality werenít so gentlemanly and outwardly subdued . . . if heíd had a few relievers who could get through the eighth inning without filing an insurance claim . . .

    Narron has tried to put his personal stamp on the Reds. He has stressed fundamentals and demanded hustle. Each time neither edict is followed, another kernel of his credibility is lost. At some point, all thatís left is husk.

    To fix something, you have to acknowledge itís broken. Right now, the whole organization is in a weird state of denial. Thirty-nine games into it, weíre still hearing that the pitchers need to pitch, the hitters need to hit and the Brewers arenít as good as theyíre playing. Thanks for that.

    If you could look at 11 losses in 13 games and see a team capable of winning 11 of 13, you might accept the notion that things will get better. Itís hard to see it that way.

    The talent isnít there, especially in the bullpen. The passion isnít there. The leadership isnít there.

    The manager is, though, and heís catching the heat. Thatís how it works in baseball


    You cannot defeat an ignorant man in an argument!
    -William Gibbs McAdoo

    Though many of us here are sure trying

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    Re: Paul Daugherty's editorial Tuesday...

    I don't understand how, as Daugherty believes, Narron is completely blameless. If the players aren't responding to him, if he has no credibility, that's as much his fault as theirs. Obviously he's not pushing the right buttons or doesn't command the players' respect to the point that they are willing to alter their behavior.

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    The Mad Monk Jaycint's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's editorial Tuesday...

    I'd be happy to see Narron go but no matter who they bring in it's going to be kind of like changing the color of lipstick smeared on the pig. Until this abomination of a bullpen is addressed along with some pop from the right hand side of the dish, the guy calling the shots in the dugout won't make much difference IMO.

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    Member Crosley68's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    Sad but true I fear.
    Let's play two!!!

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    Wonderful article from Daughtery. I'd rep him if he was a poster.

    The most telling part of the article.
    It was telling, after Narron embarrassed Edwin Encarnacion mid-game more than a month ago, for a perceived lack of hustle, that no player came to the manager’s defense. Instead, what you heard privately in the clubhouse was that Encarnacion didn’t see the popup he’d hit, thought it was out of play and shouldn’t have been made an example of.
    But no, when REDSZONE said this the day it happend, they just had it out for Narron. People who said were called Edwin homers and Narron haters.

    So no what? Are the Reds own players Edwin lovers and Narron haters?
    Last edited by reds44; 05-16-2007 at 06:11 PM.
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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    Sometimes it only takes one incident to lose a clubhouse. Perhaps when Narron benched EE that was that straw that broke the camel's back. Whether you believe it was the right thing to do or not, it seems that the players didn't think so. You have to get the players to play for you or you're not going to be successful, no matter how good of a manager you are. I don't think the players should run the show, otherwise they'd want to keep all their buddies on the team. But they have to buy into what a manager is selling and it doesn't seem this team is doing that. Now you can fix that by replacing the players or the manager. It's a lot easier to replace the manager than the players.
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    The problem is the issues the Reds have were already there when Narron arrived. He simply hasn't been able to get changes. And the thing is the players are the ones who need to do it. The Reds sorely need that veteran presence but I think part of the problem is that you have a man-mountain in Adam Dunn. Who's going to tell him what to do? If he won't respond, why should anyone else?

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    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    I worked with juvenille girls for three years and I always had the same mindset with everyone I worked with. Be firm, fair and consistent with people. I don't feel looking at some of the situations that have happened this year that Jerry has done this and it has splintered the clubhouse.
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    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    Fliiping schlep. This column is absolutely the crux of all of my problems with Paul Daugherty -- and I used to love Paul Daugherty.

    He presents a specific argument: that this team is, in essence, immature; that its members don't understand winning or don't care about it. That they make excuses and it's their fault for not winning and Narron ultimately gets the blame for it. This is perfectly valid in a sense. I know that we all roll over at the idea of scrappy vets, but I still believe there is a good element to the scrappy vets (provided they can, you know, play baseball and all that...) It's very, very feasible that this team is immature and doesn't understand winning yet. There's a shockingly low proportion of people on this team who have ever even made the playoffs. I've never been in the playoffs myself, but I imagine that it affects you quite deeply if you're a ballplayer -- if not every day, then at least a few times a week, ie. more often than we're witness to the Reds playing well.

    So I don't want to discount Daughtery's opinions, or roll my eyes at his hypothesis and say that veteran leaderhip and desire to win count for nothing. I don't believe that.

    However.

    Daugherty is a columnist. He's presenting his opinion here, but I've searched this piece carefully, and I've found nothing to back up this hypothesis. The closest he comes is right here:

    It was telling, after Narron embarrassed Edwin Encarnacion mid-game more than a month ago, for a perceived lack of hustle, that no player came to the manager’s defense. Instead, what you heard privately in the clubhouse was that Encarnacion didn’t see the popup he’d hit, thought it was out of play and shouldn’t have been made an example of. The first time any player has offered a defense of Narron came from Ryan Freel, before Monday’s loss.
    So, privately in the clubhouse, then. What exactly did he hear? A geniune belief from people who play baseball daily that the ball was unseeable? I'm not condoning Encarnacion's decision, and mother of God this team is really bad and the last thing I want to do is make excuses for it, but if Daugherty really wants to write a whole freaking column taking sides, then by flip he needs to find facts that back up his side. He doesn't. Any dude sitting in his living room could present the same opinion -- essentially a column defending the manager -- if only he had a way with words. I like words myself, so I'm not swayed by them. If this quack wants to convince me, he needs some cold facts. He doesn't bother. It drives me bananas. This team is performing way below expectations this year. It performed way above expecations last year; I don't remember any columns from Daugherty saying that Narron was an idiot and the players transcended him. You take such a strong stance, and to a degree you have to accept its absoluteness and therefore its converse. Yeah, he doesn't do that, does he?

    What bothers me most of all is that I feel that it prevents this team getting better. I honestly don't know who's responsible for this team's unbelievably poor showing -- the manager, the GM, the players. Logic probably dictates that it's bits and pieces of all three. The second you start taking sides, you're pointing fingers, and then someone's right and someone's wrong, and someone's exempt from responsibility and someone else is a bad baseball player and thousands of Cincinnatians are grumbling over their morning coffee that talented players like EdE and Dunn are lazy bums who should be traded. Give me a fleeping break.

    If you're going to tell me what's actually wrong with this team -- ie. some combination of stats or inside quotes or real insight -- then go right ahead and I'm more than happy to listen. If you're going to tell me what you suppose is wrong with this team and back it up with a sheer opinion piece, then join Redszone and stop making me pay 50 cents to hear you talk every morning. You only prolong the avoidance of responsibility that this team has enjoyed for so many years now, and you're ruining the actual validity of the Scrappy Vet (and he does actually deserve some credence). Deal with it, dude. Your face stopped being enough to listen to a long time ago.
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    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    When there is a losing streak like this, people need scapegoats. The easiest person to blame is the manager. But the general public will also want to blame the highest paid players as well.

    I don't believe this team would be any better if these guys threw a nutty every time they struck out or if they burned their clothes after every loss. It might make people feel better but if they keep losing, what's the difference?
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    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    Vatican Plum. That was really well put, especially this:

    "The second you start taking sides, you're pointing fingers, and then someone's right and someone's wrong, and someone's exempt from responsibility and someone else is a bad baseball player and thousands of Cincinnatians are grumbling over their morning coffee that talented players like EdE and Dunn are lazy bums who should be traded."
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

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    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's editorial Tuesday...

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmith421 View Post
    I don't understand how, as Daugherty believes, Narron is completely blameless. If the players aren't responding to him, if he has no credibility, that's as much his fault as theirs. Obviously he's not pushing the right buttons or doesn't command the players' respect to the point that they are willing to alter their behavior.
    I think he's responding to the Hal McCoy lame defense of managers: "Does Narron pitch? Does Narron put down bunts? Does Narron make errors?" My response is, Patton didn't drive a tank, but I'll tell ya he was essential to winning the war.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    If what Daugherty says is true about the benching of EdE, I can't help but be reminded of the whole incident with the massage chairs when Miley was manager. That kind of stuff may work in the minors where most of the players are young kids, but this is a team with guys who have been in the bigs a while now and so I don't think these kind of stunts are conducive to the clubhouse. It seems like in years gone by, the manager would have referred the matter to the vets, who would have then had a kangaroo court or something. But if you just bench a guy or take away massage chairs without any explanation or appeal to reason, I think it turns players off. I know in my job, if the boss took away someone's privileges because of something he thought happened without taking the time to get the real story, people would get turned off.

    As far as what vp said, I agree with you. It seems like having a column is sometimes used as an excuse to be lazy. If I have a column, I can say whatever I want and propose any hypothesis without supporting it with evidence because I'm a columnist and it's my opinion that counts, right? I made the mistake of watching "Around the Horn" on ESPN a couple of times. It seems like the only requirements to being a sports columnist these days are an ability to shout louder than everyone else and to use pretty words while doing it.
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    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    A lot of awesome things.
    Great post, vaticanplum. Daugherty also still thinks Adam Dunn is the second coming of Dave Kingman, this too without the facts to back it up, so I'm naturally skeptical of anything he says or writes.
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    Re: Paul Daugherty's column Tuesday...

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    What bothers me most of all is that I feel that it prevents this team getting better. I honestly don't know who's responsible for this team's unbelievably poor showing -- the manager, the GM, the players. Logic probably dictates that it's bits and pieces of all three. The second you start taking sides, you're pointing fingers, and then someone's right and someone's wrong, and someone's exempt from responsibility and someone else is a bad baseball player and thousands of Cincinnatians are grumbling over their morning coffee that talented players like EdE and Dunn are lazy bums who should be traded. Give me a fleeping break.

    If you're going to tell me what's actually wrong with this team -- ie. some combination of stats or inside quotes or real insight -- then go right ahead and I'm more than happy to listen. If you're going to tell me what you suppose is wrong with this team and back it up with a sheer opinion piece, then join Redszone and stop making me pay 50 cents to hear you talk every morning. You only prolong the avoidance of responsibility that this team has enjoyed for so many years now, and you're ruining the actual validity of the Scrappy Vet (and he does actually deserve some credence). Deal with it, dude. Your face stopped being enough to listen to a long time ago.
    VP, your post is outstanding on many levels, but I wanted to comment parallel to the quoted text which was spot on the point. From listening to Reds fans around the park and the water cooler who, for the most part, do not have the time and/or make the effort to take an analytical bent in forming their opinions about the squad, I can say anecdotally that the inquisitorial finger-pointing is the fad of the last fortnight.

    Unfortunately, talented players are condemned most often, but eventually all fingers end up pointing to Narron for "not bunting enough" or failing to "start runners." Out of the other side of the mouth comes complaints about micro-management...which is it? Of course, as VP adroitly pointed out, the opinion changes with the W-L column, never waxing nor waning in its subjectivity.

    For me, Narron does not get a pass for the team's lack of talent, nor for their "underperformance." However, the largest problem I have with running Narron out on a rail is perpetuating the "Interim Manager Cycle," or the undue worship that will come via the media to the man who pilots the previously underachieving team to a 41-40 second half...and then 12 months later the team is right back where it started.

    The scary part is that both Griffey and Dunn have produced exceedingly good numbers thus far; I perish the thought of how much worse it could be, but add in some league average bullpenning and voila, a .500 team.


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