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Thread: How do you feel?

  1. #1
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    How do you feel?

    It's very confusing. I just didn't see this coming. I feel like I got sucker-punched in the gut.

    I'm in sales and I know all about not over-reacting to good times or bad times, but it's rare that it ever gets this bad. This is a total drought, and I know that if I feel this way, then many or most of you must feel this way, too.

    The players, though must be devastated. I've had a slump like this before and you start doubting everything you do. It almost feels like you're in a well with no rope and the walls are too slick for you to climb and see the light.

    Hope is dim.

    Winning is the only way out of this mess, but not even the Aces can stop the bleeding. Amazingly, Junior, Dunn, and Phillips are hitting, and Weathers has been great (except for that one inning).

    You can't get rid of all the players at once, and it's too early to tank the whole season. What is spinning around in WK's head every hour?

    Is he consulting with anyone on the options.

    Is this Narron's last weekend as skipper?

    With summer approaching and the expected rise in attendance around the corner, I don't think they can do anything other than fire Narron, or else they won't have anyone show up at the ballpark. I can't see the team turning anything around with things remaining the same.

    This season wasn't supposed to turn out like this.

    The Manager has to be sacrificed. Changing players hasn't helped at all, it's only gotten worse with each exchange of players.
    Last edited by Eric_Davis; 05-27-2007 at 02:23 PM.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

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  3. #2
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    I hate to keep posting this, but I'm not surprised at all. The season is going as expected so far. It will continue as long as this cast of characters (Stanton, Lohse, Saarloos, Hatte, Conine, Castro, Javy, etc) sticks around. They aren't all useless (the pitchers I named are) but they just don't provide the strength that the team needs in the roles that they fill or they simply clog the roster. I still think the team will rally a little once the dead wood is swept away. I'm looking for a Hamilton/Votto/EdE/Dunn headed hot streak in August or so that gets the Reds off the 100 Loss pace.

    My biggest concern is that Narron doesn't damage some of the decent players the organization has. IMO, he's messing with the arms of Harang and Arroyo, he screwed with EE's head, he recently overworked Coutlangus, he ran Coffey into the ground and back to AAA. Its time for a change there.
    Last edited by mth123; 05-27-2007 at 03:16 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  4. #3
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    I feel fine, just a sports team.

    It is a little depressing that Krivksy is turning out to be another pumpkin, means we're even more yearsaway from winning rings and banners.
    Go Gators!

  5. #4
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    With my hands, mostly. When I start feeling with other parts, I get into trouble.

  6. #5
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    The problem is the same problem we had for years. A lack of a plan which is clear and then is executed and most importantly, stuck to for more than a year. Think the Indians weren't frustrated 3 years ago? How about the Tigers? Baseball is a game the follows the law of large numbers. Overreacting is a great way to nickel and dime yourself in to a crappy team. Giving multi-year deals to non-essential role players is locking yourself in to mediocrity.

    Figure out who your core is and build around it. Commit to it! If that core isn't talented enough to contend, then you need to figure out how get a better core - not supplement it with again mediocrity and hope they all perform above their historically established level. You can't count on the veteran/bench guys like Stanton, Hatteberg, Conine, etc. to carry a team. You don't bat Conine clean-up just because your young slugger is struggling.

    While this might go against convention, I think the way out of this thing is stability, not a shake-up. This team has absolutely no identity and is rarely given a chance to form one. In times of struggles, everybody tries to be the hero and in the process makes things worse.

    - Stop tying something different every night and commit to your best options. Have a lineup vL and a lineup vR and stick with it for more than a game or two.
    - Stop batting Adam Dunn lower than 4th. Much of his offensive value is in his OBP and his OBP is wasted when it comes ahead of Dave Ross or Alex Gonzalez. Let him walk and score 120 runs. That's not a bad thing! Strikeouts with men on base are much much better than double plays.
    - Stop batting Alex Gonzalez higher than 7th.
    - EE is your starting 3B. He plays everyday unless he needs a day off. If you can't live with his defensive growing pains, then trade him away and figure out a new permanent option not named Ryan Freel.
    - Freel is a great guy to give 400 AB to via a super utility role. He is not an everyday CF or 3B. Just ask his diving OBP. When Hamilton comes back, Freel goes back to the bench and Hamilton plays everyday.
    - Take out your mediocre pitchers BEFORE they have no gas left. An 80 pitch, 5 IP, 2 ER start is much much better than a 100 pitch, 5.2 IP, 5 ER start.
    - Stop treating the young guys in the pen with kid gloves. They're in the majors because they can pitch. Let them! Coffey wouldn't implode if you didn't use him 5 days a week.

    If we stink, we stink. But this constant tinkering isn't helping anything. Identify who your good and bad players are (if it wasn't obvious already) and then fix the real problems. Krivsky made a great point this morning when he said you have to figure out who goes down when you want to call somebody up. This team has too much crap in the way of getting better. We have to add more talent and that means better production from positions filled by mediocrity.

    Mike Stanton will never be a great reliever again. Brad Salmon could be but we won't know if he doesn't get a chance. Hat & Conine might combine for an .800 OPS. Votto could be a .900 guy but we won't know unless he gets ABs. We need right handed power? Well, homers from EE in Louisville while Juan Castro plays 3B doesn't help. Stop worrying about winning that 79th or 80th game this year and start trying to build a team than can worry about it's 95th win next year.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 05-27-2007 at 03:13 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  7. #6
    Greatness In The Making RedLegSuperStar's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I hate to keep posting this, but I'm not surprised at all. The season is going as expected so far. It will continue as long as this cast of characters (Santos, Lohse, Saarloos, Hatte, Conine, Castro, Javy, etc) sticks around. They aren't all useless (the pitchers I named are) but they just don't provide the strength that the team needs in the roles that they fill or they simply clog the roster. I still think the team will rally a little once the dead wood is swept away. I'm looking for a Hamilton/Votto/EdE/Dunn headed hot streak in August or so that gets the Reds off the 100 Loss pace.

    My biggest concern is that Narron doesn't damage some of the decent players the organization has. IMO, he's messing with the arms of Harang and Arroyo, he screwed with EE's head, he recently overworked Coutlangus, he ran Coffey into the ground and back to AAA. Its time for a change there.
    I think you forgot to mention Stanton and Moeller..however I think Santos, Hatteberg, and Conine are good for this team. I think Saarloos and Lohse are being used in the wrong role and should be placed in the 'pen. We all know why Castro is here and it is just for his glove.. his bat is useless in pinch hit situations. But to have 3 catchers at the big league level is dumb founded. And to call the 2nd best catcher a pinch hitter while Moeller is on the 25 man roster is just redundent. I'd like to see this 25 man roster by the 1st of June:

    Rotation:

    Harang
    Arroyo
    Belisle
    Bailey
    Dumatrait

    'Pen:

    Saarloos
    Lohse
    Santos
    Majewski
    Countlangus
    Burton
    Weathers

    Lineup:

    Freel CF
    Phillips 2B
    Griffey RF
    Dunn LF
    Hatteberg 1B
    Encarnacion 3B
    Ross C
    Gonzalez SS

    Bench:

    Conine 1B/OF
    Valentin C/1B
    Votto 1B
    Castro SS/3B
    Hopper OF

    When Hamilton is ready to come off the DL I'd move Dunn to 1st. Now will Dunn get the nod at 1st? Probably not.. but getting him out of the outfield and at a position that suits him from a baseball stand point. A move like that gets Freel and Hamilton in the line-up which would be ideal. A DFA to Stanton would free up a roster spot for Bailey and send Moeller and Salmon down and call up Dumatrait and Votto. This team is at the bottom and why not see what we have in the minors. Might send the message these boys need and the young guys are going to play hard because they want the chance to stay here. That's how I feel...
    "I could watch video of Griffey swinging all day. It's like baseball porn." - C. Trent Rosecrans


    2008 Reds Record When I Attend: 9W - 5L

    2009 Reds Record When I Attend: 1W - 2L

    2010 Reds Record When I Attend: 1W - 0L

    2011 Reds Record When I Attend: 0W - 1L

  8. #7
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    This is the season I thought we were in for last year. Overall, I am not too concerned...this is the first GM that has had the guts to make moves and not chit chat about it in the press. I think he is consulting with others, maybe not the usual brain trust that has been available here in Cincy before but certainly his network of people...I am not worried about this season and really look for next season to be the litmus test of what Special K is or is not.

    Last year was a fluke, this year is closer to reality but a little less than I expected but overall his investments have been low risk, with exception of "The Trade" which I think will not be known as "THE TRADE" unless Lopez and Kearns turn out to be anything above average which I never did and still do not think they are.
    "Sometimes, it's not the sexiest moves that put you over the top," Krivsky said. "It's a series of transactions that help you get there."

  9. #8
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar View Post
    When Hamilton is ready to come off the DL I'd move Dunn to 1st. Now will Dunn get the nod at 1st? Probably not.. but getting him out of the outfield and at a position that suits him from a baseball stand point. A move like that gets Freel and Hamilton in the line-up which would be ideal. A DFA to Stanton would free up a roster spot for Bailey and send Moeller and Salmon down and call up Dumatrait and Votto. This team is at the bottom and why not see what we have in the minors. Might send the message these boys need and the young guys are going to play hard because they want the chance to stay here. That's how I feel...
    You'd bring up Votto just to see him sit on the bench? I'm fine with taking him out versus tough lefties and putting Dunn at 1B for those games, but leaving him on the bench to get Freel at bats seems like a horrible waste of talent to me; especially considering how useless Freel has been offensively. Bring Votto up, play him nearly every day. Same with Hamilton. At this point, it's as much about figuring out what these guys can do. Playing it safe by playing Freel everyday doesn't really accomplish anything if it means taking away at bats from guys who could be real core contributors down the road.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  10. #9
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLegSuperStar View Post
    I think you forgot to mention Stanton and Moeller..however I think Santos, Hatteberg, and Conine are good for this team. I think Saarloos and Lohse are being used in the wrong role and should be placed in the 'pen. We all know why Castro is here and it is just for his glove.. his bat is useless in pinch hit situations. But to have 3 catchers at the big league level is dumb founded. And to call the 2nd best catcher a pinch hitter while Moeller is on the 25 man roster is just redundent. I'd like to see this 25 man roster by the 1st of June:

    Rotation:

    Harang
    Arroyo
    Belisle
    Bailey
    Dumatrait

    'Pen:

    Saarloos
    Lohse
    Santos
    Majewski
    Countlangus
    Burton
    Weathers

    Lineup:

    Freel CF
    Phillips 2B
    Griffey RF
    Dunn LF
    Hatteberg 1B
    Encarnacion 3B
    Ross C
    Gonzalez SS

    Bench:

    Conine 1B/OF
    Valentin C/1B
    Votto 1B
    Castro SS/3B
    Hopper OF

    When Hamilton is ready to come off the DL I'd move Dunn to 1st. Now will Dunn get the nod at 1st? Probably not.. but getting him out of the outfield and at a position that suits him from a baseball stand point. A move like that gets Freel and Hamilton in the line-up which would be ideal. A DFA to Stanton would free up a roster spot for Bailey and send Moeller and Salmon down and call up Dumatrait and Votto. This team is at the bottom and why not see what we have in the minors. Might send the message these boys need and the young guys are going to play hard because they want the chance to stay here. That's how I feel...
    I actually meant Stanton but listening to today's game I typed Santos.

    I don't think Dunn at 1B will suit the defense at 2B, SS and 3B. In the OF he doesn't screw-up plays on balls not hit to him and a rangy CF can cover for him and reduce his damage. At 1B, I don't see him completing outs unless throws are perfect and they won't be frequently no matter who the other IF are. I also don't like blocking one of the better hitting prospects in the minors.

    I want all the dead wood gone. My list above was a partial list but if we want complete try this for guys to purge in 2007:

    Stanton, Milton, Lohse, Santos, Saarloos, Conine, Hatteberg, Javy, Moeller and Castro. Trade Weathers and Freel for good prospects.

    If a good deal comes along trade Griffey. If a future catcher can be acquired deal Ross. Look for a SS of the future to groom behind Gonzalez and when he's ready trade Gonzalez too (maybe next year).

    But first fire Narron and put the rest of the coaching staff on notice that they may not be back in 2008.
    Last edited by mth123; 05-27-2007 at 03:44 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  11. #10
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    The problem is the same problem we had for years. A lack of a plan which is clear and then is executed and most importantly, stuck to for more than a year. Think the Indians weren't frustrated 3 years ago? How about the Tigers? Baseball is a game the follows the law of large numbers. Overreacting is a great way to nickel and dime yourself in to a crappy team. Giving multi-year deals to non-essential role players is locking yourself in to mediocrity.

    Figure out who your core is and build around it. Commit to it! If that core isn't talented enough to contend, then you need to figure out how get a better core - not supplement it with again mediocrity and hope they all perform above their historically established level. You can't count on the veteran/bench guys like Stanton, Hatteberg, Conine, etc. to carry a team. You don't bat Conine clean-up just because your young slugger is struggling.

    While this might go against convention, I think the way out of this thing is stability, not a shake-up. This team has absolutely no identity and is rarely given a chance to form one. In times of struggles, everybody tries to be the hero and in the process makes things worse.

    - Stop tying something different every night and commit to your best options. Have a lineup vL and a lineup vR and stick with it for more than a game or two.
    - Stop batting Adam Dunn lower than 4th. Much of his offensive value is in his OBP and his OBP is wasted when it comes ahead of Dave Ross or Alex Gonzalez. Let him walk and score 120 runs. That's not a bad thing! Strikeouts with men on base are much much better than double plays.
    - Stop batting Alex Gonzalez higher than 7th.
    - EE is your starting 3B. He plays everyday unless he needs a day off. If you can't live with his defensive growing pains, then trade him away and figure out a new permanent option not named Ryan Freel.
    - Freel is a great guy to give 400 AB to via a super utility role. He is not an everyday CF or 3B. Just ask his diving OBP. When Hamilton comes back, Freel goes back to the bench and Hamilton plays everyday.
    - Take out your mediocre pitchers BEFORE they have no gas left. An 80 pitch, 5 IP, 2 ER start is much much better than a 100 pitch, 5.2 IP, 5 ER start.
    - Stop treating the young guys in the pen with kid gloves. They're in the majors because they can pitch. Let them! Coffey wouldn't implode if you didn't use him 5 days a week.

    If we stink, we stink. But this constant tinkering isn't helping anything. Identify who your good and bad players are (if it wasn't obvious already) and then fix the real problems. Krivsky made a great point this morning when he said you have to figure out who goes down when you want to call somebody up. This team has too much crap in the way of getting better. We have to add more talent and that means better production from positions filled by mediocrity.

    Mike Stanton will never be a great reliever again. Brad Salmon could be but we won't know if he doesn't get a chance. Hat & Conine might combine for an .800 OPS. Votto could be a .900 guy but we won't know unless he gets ABs. We need right handed power? Well, homers from EE in Louisville while Juan Castro plays 3B doesn't help. Stop worrying about winning that 79th or 80th game this year and start trying to build a team than can worry about it's 95th win next year.

    All good replies by everyone here. Consistency by the Manager is extremely important.

    Through most of April, the Mariners were the worst hitting team in the league...where most of the team was batting at or below .200. Hargrove didn't change where Sexson or Beltre hit. He didn't move Ichiro out of the leadoff spot. He didn't stop using the relievers who were ineffective. He didn't overwork any of his relievers because they were hot.

    Things turned around and now they're scoring runs like crazy. Their relievers have responded.
    Rob Neyer: "Any writer who says he'd be a better manager than the worst manager is either 1) lying (i.e. 'using poetic license') or 2) patently delusional. Which isn't to say managers don't do stupid things that you or I wouldn't."

  12. #11
    Resident optimist OldRightHander's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?


  13. #12
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    Consistency by the Manager is extremely important.
    Consistency, something to be said about that term, assuming that it is in the positive sense.

  14. #13
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_Davis View Post
    All good replies by everyone here. Consistency by the Manager is extremely important.
    We have been consistent. Consistently putrid. That's the problem.

    We're nothing if not consistent.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  15. #14
    Dunnilicious creek14's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    I'm waiting to see if this lump in my neck is cancer.

    So I really don't care if the Reds lose out the season. I'm just looking forward to getting to see them play everyday.

    I feel damn lucky to be given the opportunity to wake up every morning.

    That's how I feel.
    Will trade this space for a #1 starter.

  16. #15
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Re: How do you feel?

    What is wrong is that players decide where they want to play, if anything doesn't go their way they seem to (because I can't know for sure) sulk a bit.

    This franchise is management weak.

    I know we al hoped that Castellini was the answer....welll, maybe he might be somemwhere down the road but for now he is just more of the same.

    I tell you, the turning point off the cliff was trading for JR. It won't get right again until his contract is offf the books......so, just wait and treat ever game until then as a simple drama within itself and never...NEVER look at the standings.
    "Is there a problem officers?"


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