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Thread: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

  1. #16
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    For the first time in a long time, we have a very good opportunity to see what some of the minor leaguers can do over a months-long period; that should give us the opportunity to properly evaluate what we have and what we don't. Instead of just going on 15 innings from some callup and declaring him the "future" or "dogmeat" based on that small sample, now we can see these kids endure their lumps and see who's standing at the end.
    And I can almost 100% guarantee you they won't take advantage of it.
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  3. #17
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leader View Post
    And I can almost 100% guarantee you they won't take advantage of it.
    Nope, because "we're only 8 or so back"

    And on and on it goes
    Go Gators!

  4. #18
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Santos is my bet for the first player sent packing (as opposed to optioned to the minors). He's pitched poorly, as little to no upside and has no contract investment to "protect". But guys like Salmon will likley be optioned prior to anyone getting released.

  5. #19
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Instead of just going on 15 innings from some callup and declaring him the "future" or "dogmeat" based on that small sample....
    Actual categories from Reds scouting reports.

    I can see the RZ poll now.


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  6. #20
    Member Stormy's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leader View Post
    If Eddie Guardado is ready to go, I have no problems optioning Coutlangus to AAA to make room for him. He is the major league team's closer. You have to make room for him no matter how hard the decision.

    When Coffey is ready to roll, I don't have a problem optioning Salmon, either. You have to have your best players on the major league team and although Salmon is a good relief pitcher, I believe Cofffey, when right, is better.

    When Bray is ready to come off the DL, then you can look at possibly trading or DFA'ing Staton, IMO, as I do think Bray in for Stanton would further improve the bullpen.
    In my opinion, that is the type of by the book thinking that will likely lose this team 90 games this year, and will have a bullpen no more prepared for 2008 than it was for 2007. A 3 game winning streak, against teams that are nearly the Reds' equals in futility, should not divert this franchise from making all moves with an eye to their future, rather than present. Winning at a .389 clip, and having lost on a similar scale over the course of their last 160+ games, is a reminder that the current manifestation of this team is headed nowhere fast.

    Over the span of the next 30-45 days, we have a chance to both remove much of the aging driftwood from this squad, and to use the remainder of this season to evaluate which youngsters belong in the bullpen of the future. Anything derailing, or even indefinitely delaying, that tactic, contributes to having a repeat performance of our pitching woes in 2008 (and further bolsters Krivsky's currently misguided bullpen construction philosophy, which is the real danger). Anything which gives him a reason to continue to build bullpens as he has in his first 2 seasons, allocating too much money, resources and roster space to washed out veteran soft tossers over the task of actually evaluating the youngsters on an extended basis.

    We have a chance to mold the core of a good bullpen, for the first time since we developed our own model from within with Sully, Williamson, Graves (acquired as a prospect), White etc... and to then supplement them with the proper veteran depth. We've been too busy the past 2 seasons, seeing if other teams' jettisoned journeyman (Cormier, Schoeneweis, Stanton, Guardado, Saarloos, Mercker, Hammond, White, Franklin et al...) can form the nucleus of a bullpen, rather than developing youngsters around a few key veterans.

    When, and if Guardado is ready, Krivsky should bite the bullet of his past errors, and start to make room by shaving guys like Stanton from the roster; by sending Majewski back out if he continues to utterly underwhelm; by trying to turn Weathers (whom I love for his leadership and grit) career season into a nice trade return for our future; by building up Santos stock with an eye towards moving him, or releasing him etc...

    My greatest fear regarding this bullpen is that a slight winning streak, and the return of a few of the ailing vets a.) leads Krivsky to thinking that we are competetive, and that our best bet at heading back towards .500 is to ride the veterans, and that b.) after the All-Star break, we find our bullpen to be Guardado, Weathers, Santos, Stanton, Majewski, Coffey (and maybe one youngster). Consequently, we're back to square one, heading into 2008 with a viable, long-term bullpen still needing to be constructed, forever, putting off any semblance of rebuilding, due to wistfully thinking we're contending right now.
    Last edited by Stormy; 05-31-2007 at 01:05 PM.

  7. #21
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    I let Easy Eddie toil in the minors until the trading deadline. I ride Stanton, Majewski, Weathers until that deadline also. I try to make them into something tradeable but, if I can't get a bag of balls for any of them, I eat Stanton's contract, possibly stick with Weathers for awhile and option the Majic Man, if possible.

    Burton stays. Santos goes on the trading block until I can't wait any longer then he's bilge water. Coutalangus stays. Salmon stays.

    I fill from there depending on which side I need the arm to swing from.

    Rem

  8. #22
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Santos is my bet for the first player sent packing (as opposed to optioned to the minors). He's pitched poorly, as little to no upside and has no contract investment to "protect". But guys like Salmon will likley be optioned prior to anyone getting released.

    I don't think he's pitched that poorly. He certainly saved Bronson's bacon in that game against the Nats. He's a long reliever and no one else in this bullpen is. Bet the farm we're going to need someone like that a few more times this year. Now if you want to call Homer up and put him in that role, I'd be all for letting Santos go. But Wayne isnt going to do that so we might as well keep Santos in that spot.
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  9. #23
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Within a year, I would like to see all 6 of these arms given a chance in the bullpen. They have proven they miss bats at every level. They are ready and have nothing more to prove. Plus, when you consider that all 6 would cost less than a year of Mike Stanton, there really is no reason to not give them all a shot.
    Good stuff, BR. Like FCB said, grant time and space for the staff to garner a truly representative sample of the performance of the youngsters currently here, and on the horizon (rather than continuing to flush hunderds of innings a year on transient vets, only to find yourself without a grasp of your own prospects abilities at this level). Dating back to last July 1st, this team is 56-79, 23 games below .500 in it's last 135 games. Someone send the memo to the Front Office that their record reflects a rebuild, not a contender. Now is the time to evaluate the youngsters.

  10. #24
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Stormy for GM. Cyclone for Special Ass't to the GM in charge of analysis. Problems solved.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #25
    Puffy's Daddy Red Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Stormy for GM. Cyclone for Special Ass't to the GM in charge of analysis. Problems solved.
    I agree. Great post, as usual, Stormy. Just to be clear, I was answering the question "What do you do in the next 2-3 weeks" that was posed in the original post. That's what I would do, bring up Guardado, Coffey, and when he's ready, Bray. I certainly see the argument that we need to see what we have in house and see how it performs in preparation for setting up next year's bullpen, and I agree with it. My thinking in calling those players up the next 2-3 weeks is that they have to be on the major league team and performing for us to have a shot at trading them, which is what my ultimate goal is, to trade all of the vets in the bullpen for anything useful, or in some cases salary relief, and give the chance to our youngsters to prove what they have in the later parts of July and into August and September.
    'When I'm not longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg.'
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  12. #26
    Puffy 3:16 Puffy's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leader View Post
    Just to be clear, I was answering the question "What do you do in the next 2-3 weeks" that was posed in the original post.
    Sure you were.
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  13. #27
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    In my opinion, that is the type of by the book thinking that will likely lose this team 90 games this year, and will have a bullpen no more prepared for 2008 than it was for 2007. A 3 game winning streak, against teams that are nearly the Reds' equals in futility, should not divert this franchise from making all moves with an eye to their future, rather than present.
    I'm not disagreeing with you, but honestly curious.
    Has anybody seen any tendency during the Narron era that they are really trying to see what players have as opposed to trying to win every game out? There's a subtle difference there isn't there?

    In mid-September last year, Narron gave some quotes indicating that he expected to play Brandon Phillips at shortstop for the rest of the year in order to sort out if Phillips could do it. The experiment lasted two days. Now...I understand, the cards were losing it and the reds nearly crept into the playoffs even thought the team was miserable, but...two games, one of which was played in a downpour and called off after five innings. That was a 9 inning tryout.

    Look at the way the bench is constructed....Old guys with specific skills. Glove boy, Right handed bat, Left handed bat, Spare catcher, fast versatile guy. Look at the bullpen that has been assembled two years in a row by different GM's, guys that can "pitch every night" and a staff of pitchers that can "fill multiple roles".

    If the reds are not intent on winning right now (and agree that they shouldn't be) can Jerry Narron manage in a way such that the goal is to sort out the talent the organization has and not maximize the chance that you win every night? I've seen no indication that this is the case.
    Last edited by dfs; 05-31-2007 at 01:17 PM.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  14. #28
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you, but honestly curious.
    Has anybody seen any tendency during the Narron era that they are really trying to see what players have as opposed to trying to win every game out? There's a subtle difference there isn't there?

    In mid-September last year, Narron gave some quotes indicating that he expected to play Brandon Phillips at shortstop for the rest of the year in order to sort out if Phillips could do it. The experiment lasted two days. Now...I understand, the cards were losing it and the reds nearly crept into the playoffs even thought the team was miserable, but...two games, one of which was played in a downpour and called off after five innings. That was a 9 inning tryout.

    Look at the way the bench is constructed....Old guys with specific skills. Look at the bullpen that has been assembled two years in a row by different GM's, guys that can "pitch every night" and a staff of pitchers that can "fill multiple roles".

    If the reds are not intent on winning right now (and agree that they shouldn't be)

    Can Jerry Narron manage in a way such that the goal is to sort out the talent the organization has and not maximize the chance that you win every night? I've seen no indication that this is the case.
    That's reason enough, right there, that he should be fired. And I'm not big on the "Fire Narron" bandwagon either.

  15. #29
    Passion for the game Team Clark's Avatar
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heath View Post
    I think Easy Eddie's biological pitching clock is ticking, henceforth the "sense of urgency".
    El Bingo!
    It's absolutely pathetic that people can't have an opinion from actually watching games and supplementing that with stats. If you voice an opinion that doesn't fit into a black/white box you will get completely misrepresented and basically called a tobacco chewing traditionalist...
    Cedric 3/24/08

  16. #30
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Some Tough Bullpen Decisions Loom.

    Reds fans to management: "Stop trying to win. Fire the manager -- he's trying to win."

    I understand why it makes sense, but I don't expect any team to say, "We'll lose 120 games, but at least we'll know more about Burton and Coutlangus."


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