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Thread: Salty solution

  1. #61
    Member Eric_Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Man View Post
    ??

    Yes, that's impressive. But it's only 82 ABs. Again, he is repeating the circuit.

    His overall minor league record (including this year's 82 ABs): .830 OPS

    Bobby Estalella's minor league record: .810 OPS

    So he strikes me a bit as a flavor-of-the-day type. And when you add in long swing, catcher, injury history, and relatively low BA. . . I guess I'll temper myself somewhat.
    Estalella was the 631st player taken in the draft. Saltamacchia the 33rd.

    You're talking about a plug vs a Kentucky Thoroughbred.
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  3. #62
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    The other thing is to consider context. Salty is a Braves prospect, and their affiliates typically play in pitcher-friendly environments. (It's one reason their pitching prospects are often overvalued.) He's also been young for the levels. What I've seen is a guy who broke out in 2005, putting up a .913 OPS in High-A as a 20-year-old, in one of the more extreme pitcher's parks in minor-league baseball. Last year? Not so good. He was slumping and he was hurt, probably related causes, but after he sat out to rest his injury he went right back to raking. He's been raking this year.

    I think it's valid to question him on the general grounds of being a catcher, with all that comes with being a catcher, and maybe -- maybe -- there's grounds to question his ability to stick behind the plate, given that he's not naturally great defensively and he's tall for a catcher. But his ability to hit? I don't question that at all.
    Not all who wander are lost

  4. #63
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Salty is playing at the MLB level.

    Can you say the same for any of the 4 I listed?

    That would be no, no, no, and no.

    Votto's the only one that seems to be a "sure" thing to get some MLB experience anytime soon. The other 3 are still crap shoots.

    I think it would be organizationally responsibly (ok, I might have made up that phrase...) to use minor league assets to attain major league talent.

    We don't have any C prospects anywhere on the radar. Getting Salty solves that problem.
    No, I cant say that about any of them. But if I could choose trading 4 months worth of Adam Dunn for 6 years of Salty vs trading 4 of our top 10 prospects for 6 years of Salty, I would trade Dunn without thinking twice. Given his contract status, its not really a difficult decision for me.

  5. #64
    White Castle to the Nile Crash Davis's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, I cant say that about any of them. But if I could choose trading 4 months worth of Adam Dunn for 6 years of Salty vs trading 4 of our top 10 prospects for 6 years of Salty, I would trade Dunn without thinking twice. Given his contract status, its not really a difficult decision for me.
    Good points, Doug.

    But what about from the Braves' point of view?

    For starters, it's likely the Braves would address their obvious pitching deficiencies before dealing Salty to try to upgrade an offense that has been producing more than just fine. Sure, Willie Harris will fall hard and Thorman is still very questionable as a run-producing first baseman, but cheap LF/1B production is relatively easy to find and relatively cheap to acquire.

    Furthermore, I haven't seen this mentioned, but Adam Dunn is not exactly the poster child for Atlanta Braves style baseball. Philosophically, the Braves have been as pro-NL Style as it gets. Bobby Cox does a great job of taking advantage of his players' strengths, but I just don't see Adam Dunn's total package as something the Braves are seeking in a LF. As much as we ORG Redszoners appreciate Adam Dunn for what he is, the Braves are an organization that will not overlook what he is not. I can't see a team like the Braves taking that big of a hit to their OF defense, nor can I see them pairing Dunn with Andruw Jones to go back-to-back with the two highest strikeout hitters in baseball. You can certainly argue whether that's smart or not, but I just can't see the Braves organization going in that direction.
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  6. #65
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    I haven't seen this mentioned, but Adam Dunn is not exactly the poster child for Atlanta Braves style baseball.
    Bingo, doesn't mean he sucks or that Cox and crew are insane, what it means is there are many paths to the goal and chances of the Braves and Dunn crossing (at the cost of players developed in their system with high ceilings) is not going to happen.

    I'll say this, if it happens it's very likely the baseball equivalent of the marriage of Julia Roberts and Lyle Lovett.

  7. #66
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Crash Davis View Post
    Good points, Doug.

    But what about from the Braves' point of view?

    For starters, it's likely the Braves would address their obvious pitching deficiencies before dealing Salty to try to upgrade an offense that has been producing more than just fine. Sure, Willie Harris will fall hard and Thorman is still very questionable as a run-producing first baseman, but cheap LF/1B production is relatively easy to find and relatively cheap to acquire.

    Furthermore, I haven't seen this mentioned, but Adam Dunn is not exactly the poster child for Atlanta Braves style baseball. Philosophically, the Braves have been as pro-NL Style as it gets. Bobby Cox does a great job of taking advantage of his players' strengths, but I just don't see Adam Dunn's total package as something the Braves are seeking in a LF. As much as we ORG Redszoners appreciate Adam Dunn for what he is, the Braves are an organization that will not overlook what he is not. I can't see a team like the Braves taking that big of a hit to their OF defense, nor can I see them pairing Dunn with Andruw Jones to go back-to-back with the two highest strikeout hitters in baseball. You can certainly argue whether that's smart or not, but I just can't see the Braves organization going in that direction.
    Oh I never said the trade made any sense for the braves, but if they came to me and offered me a Dunn for Salty trade I would take it and run before they could change their minds.

  8. #67
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Oh I never said the trade made any sense for the braves, but if they came to me and offered me a Dunn for Salty trade I would take it and run before they could change their minds.


    I would too, in a heartbeat. But for all the reasons outlined by Crash and WOY, I'd be very surprised if it ever happened.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    But if I could choose trading 4 months worth of Adam Dunn for 6 years of Salty vs trading 4 of our top 10 prospects for 6 years of Salty, I would trade Dunn without thinking twice. Given his contract status, its not really a difficult decision for me.
    I agree, except while we may be trading 4 months of Dunn (at that's all someone will get), our option is to keep Dunn for 1 year, 4 months. Still, Salty is just the return we need going forward.

    Griffey may actually have more appeal than Dunn right now in terms of trade value, as he's signed for next year (I never thought that would be an advantage), and is producing better offensively than Dunn. The big advantage of a team getting Dunn is having him get a looksee of the team and increasing your chances of signing him long term.

  10. #69
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    Re: Salty solution

    I think Griffey to ATL makes a tremendous amount of sense. He is going to be a draw when he hits 600. He is a proven veteran who has been pretty healthy this year and has finally gotten his bat right. His contract is not huge for his production and it is not that long any more. And Jr would be closer to home and playing with a legitimate contender.

    Salty may be a very good prospect (top notch, in fact) but you are still talking about a prospect, a guy who you don't know what you are going to get at ML level. If ATL has an OF and offensive hole, you give up Salty for Jr every time, especially if CIN pays some of the contract IMO.

  11. #70
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, I cant say that about any of them. But if I could choose trading 4 months worth of Adam Dunn for 6 years of Salty vs trading 4 of our top 10 prospects for 6 years of Salty, I would trade Dunn without thinking twice. Given his contract status, its not really a difficult decision for me.
    I would pick 6 years of Salty for the 4 "prospects" vs. 6 years of Salty for 4 months of Adam Dunn.

    Keep Adam Dunn, obtain Salty while not sacrificing MLB talent. I don't see why this is a hard concept.

    We know what we have in Adam Dunn, we know what he'll give us.

    We have zero clue what Votto, Stubbs, Cueto and Wood can offer.

    We have a pretty good idea what Salty can offer.

    Adam Dunn > Votto, Stubbs, Cueto and Wood IMO.

  12. #71
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    I would pick 6 years of Salty for the 4 "prospects" vs. 6 years of Salty for 4 months of Adam Dunn.

    Keep Adam Dunn, obtain Salty while not sacrificing MLB talent. I don't see why this is a hard concept.

    We know what we have in Adam Dunn, we know what he'll give us.

    We have zero clue what Votto, Stubbs, Cueto and Wood can offer.

    We have a pretty good idea what Salty can offer.

    Adam Dunn > Votto, Stubbs, Cueto and Wood IMO.
    I dont see why its a hard concept that Adam Dunn isnt signing with Cincinnati after this current contract. The guy is going to command, and get 15 million a season of 5 years and the Reds wont be the team that will pay him that. As for Stubbs, Cueto and Wood.... sure, they are a little far off and we can't really be sure of what they will offer. Votto though, yeah, he is completely ready and I know what he will offer. Because you dont know doesn't mean that others dont.

    Adam Dunn for the next 4 months on a team going absolutely nowhere < Votto, Stubbs, Cueto and Wood without question.

  13. #72
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I dont see why its a hard concept that Adam Dunn isnt signing with Cincinnati after this current contract. The guy is going to command, and get 15 million a season of 5 years and the Reds wont be the team that will pay him that. As for Stubbs, Cueto and Wood.... sure, they are a little far off and we can't really be sure of what they will offer. Votto though, yeah, he is completely ready and I know what he will offer. Because you dont know doesn't mean that others dont.

    Adam Dunn for the next 4 months on a team going absolutely nowhere < Votto, Stubbs, Cueto and Wood without question.
    Votto will offer less production than Dunn. Do you really think Votto will put up better numbers than Dunn? I agree Votto should be up now, but he's not.

    The Reds should absolutely pay Adam Dunn a contract in the range of $100 Million over 7 years, which equates to a little over 14 Million a year.

    Votto should have some impact over the next 3 years, but the same can't be said about Stubbs, Cueto and Wood.

  14. #73
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    Votto will offer less production than Dunn. Do you really think Votto will put up better numbers than Dunn? I agree Votto should be up now, but he's not.

    The Reds should absolutely pay Adam Dunn a contract in the range of $100 Million over 7 years, which equates to a little over 14 Million a year.

    Votto should have some impact over the next 3 years, but the same can't be said about Stubbs, Cueto and Wood.
    Will he put up better numbers? Probably not in the HR area, but I bet that he will hit for a better average and have a very similar, if not better OBP. Slugging, probably not, but I bet he is at least a .475 SLG guy this year. Given the money he will be making compared to what Dunn will be making, he will absolutely be a much more valuable player for the money than Dunn.

    We will agree to disagree that the Reds should pay Dunn that much money. I don't think its worth it.

    As for Cueto, Wood and Stubbs over the next 3 years.... you may be right, although I bet Cueto and Stubbs at least are in the majors by then and Wood is at least in AAA if he stays healthy. Of course you are forgetting about the whole thing where Dunn would be traded for Salty, so at that point you are getting plenty of production out of him as well.

  15. #74
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    There is NO WAY I pay Dunn $100M to play leftfield for me.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #75
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Salty solution

    I think the Reds and Redszone, need to come to terms with how they truely feel about Adam Dunn.

    1. If you view him as important cog in the offensive future of the Reds, that means they must pay him ~$15 million for the next five years. He needs to go to first base as well, he isn't going to be getting any faster over that period of time. Joey Votto will probably need to be traded, and they will lose out on the opportunity to get slighly less production in terms of OPS for pennies on the dollar they will pay Adam Dunn. Assuming Votto can do what many people believe he can do.

    2. Trade Adam Dunn for _______ prospect(s), or something else. I don't think you can get enough value back in return for Adam Dunn in any trade. Too many people are of the mindset that strikeouts are BAD. This extends to GM's as well.

    I don't really have the answer, but I think in a market like Cincy you cannot afford to pay him what he deserves. We have been down that path with Ken Griffey Jr for the last eight seasons. The As and Jason Giambi parted ways, the Reds would probably be well suited to do the same thing with Dunn.

    With all that being said, I would love to see a trade for Salty with either Dunn or Jr.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.


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