Turn Off Ads?

View Poll Results: Will he be a bust?

Voters
160. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    71 44.38%
  • No

    89 55.63%
Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 345678910 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 137

Thread: Drew Stubbs

  1. #91
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,672

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Apparently.

    Oh, and Lincecum just throttled the Brewers today to the tune of scattering 4 hits over 8 Innings of 8 K shutout ball today. But the Red don't need any of that because Lincecum is an inch shorter than Mario Soto while Drew Stubbs is nursing a serious foot injury that affects his hitting but not his running.

    Sometimes I feel like Rod Serling is speaking to me through Redszone.
    Then he goes through shoulder surgery in the winter after he felt something "pop" in September. Again, this is what Doug is talking about. The Monday morning QBing gets old.

    You feel like Roger Serling? Come on, you not saying anything that hasn't been said before REPEATEDLY. In the words of Tyler Durden, your not special.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #92
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    19,139

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Apparently.

    Oh, and Lincecum just throttled the Brewers today to the tune of scattering 4 hits over 8 Innings of 8 K shutout ball today. But the Red don't need any of that because Lincecum is an inch shorter than Mario Soto while Drew Stubbs is nursing a serious foot injury that affects his hitting but not his running.

    Sometimes I feel like Rod Serling is speaking to me through Redszone.
    Hey....in that draft, my beloved Mariners passed on Andrew Miller and Tim Lincecum to grab up their current future-starter-converted-to-short-relieving-walk-ace, Brandon Morrow.

    While zoners' playing the hindsight card on what was an obvisouly bad decision at the time is a little weak, I don't fault Reds fans for trying to see the silver lining.
    Last edited by jojo; 07-21-2007 at 09:02 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #93
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Springfield, Ohio
    Posts
    9,054

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Apparently.

    Oh, and Lincecum just throttled the Brewers today to the tune of scattering 4 hits over 8 Innings of 8 K shutout ball today. But the Red don't need any of that because Lincecum is an inch shorter than Mario Soto while Drew Stubbs is nursing a serious foot injury that affects his hitting but not his running.

    Sometimes I feel like Rod Serling is speaking to me through Redszone.
    No that might be Jim Bowden, Ryan Wagner's rookie season says hello! There are no gaurantees, Lincecum and Stubbs are no different. Ya just try to minimize the risk, and most teams passed because Lincecum's higher than normal possibility of injury. Why do you have a problem with that?

    I cannot fault the Reds for passing on him for that reason, but so many can and that's a shame. Especially considering all the failure this organization has had with injuries decimating the previous young arms.

    Yeah right now you are correct Lincecum is the star of that draft, whoopee Wagner was the star of his for a half season also.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  5. #94
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    11,492

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    I believe the discussion about who should've been drafted last year has already happened dozens of times on this message board. I think we can all come to the conclusion that having Lincecum would be better than having Stubbs this year. Many of us would admit that Lincecum would be better to have than Stubbs long-term, too. With that said, what do you say we move on and focus on what's there instead of what could've been there? This is RedsZone, not GiantsZone.

  6. #95
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Springfield, Ohio
    Posts
    9,054

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    ... but since he is a Reds prospect I will ignore the evidence and remain optimistic.
    And this is what fires me up, apparently I am now not allowed to have a positive outlook for our own prospects. I should just jump on the bandwagon that says he is a bum, face it and move on. No one has ever improved in this game so he is a lost cause.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  7. #96
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,944

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    while Drew Stubbs is nursing a serious foot injury that affects his hitting but not his running.
    Surely you don't think Drew Stubbs running hasn't been affected. The guy had world class speed at Texas and all of a sudden he gets caught stealing at an alarming rate and you don't think its affecting his speed?

    Hindsight, sure the Reds and 8 other teams should have probably taken Lincecum for this year. Whatever. There is no point in bringing it up every other freaking day is there? For crying out loud it has just gotten to the point that its ridiculous. I am staying out of this thread from now on. People need to move on, this is worse than 'the trade' debates.

  8. #97
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,398

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Aronchis View Post
    Then he goes through shoulder surgery in the winter after he felt something "pop" in September. Again, this is what Doug is talking about. The Monday morning QBing gets old.

    You feel like Roger Serling? Come on, you not saying anything that hasn't been said before REPEATEDLY. In the words of Tyler Durden, your not special.
    Be careful. Tyler Durden is a close personal friend.

    And maybe I'm not saying anything "new" because I'm not hearing anything "new". Reds select Drew Stubbs- questionable bat and all- with the 8th pick in the 2006 draft, he does nothing to suggest his bat shouldn't have been questioned, and now we're hearing that he's been far less than advertised because he's injured. I'm not saying that doug is wrong about Stubbs actually being injured, but I do certainly question the severity of that injury as well as the actual effect on his game. At his current pace, he'll attempt at least 50 Steals in 2007 and appears to be gazelle-like in center. But the injury is severe enough to dramatically affect his ability to hit but not his ability to run? Really? I'm supposed to swallow that how?

    To me, what's getting old is that we're ready to assume that Tim Lincecum's arm will explode because of his height. Nevermind that Lincecum is an inch shorter than Johan Santana and Daisuke Matsuzaka. But we need to be in constant "wait-and-see" mode with Reds prospects who've done nothing but reinforce their questionable status (Jay Bruce is currently the lone exception).

    I think it's a great study in the dynamics of fandom and the hype surrounding prospects who, with few exceptions, aren't as advertised. Homer Bailey? Not as advertised. Nowhere near. Consistent mid to high-90's heat with a solid curve? No way. The kid has to reach back to pull 95 MPH and has no idea where that pitch is going (making it three pitches over which he has no command). At his best, he struggles to be effectively wild. At his worst, it's a feast for opposing hitters. Meanwhile, Jered Weaver has produced a sub 4.00 (3.88, 3.87) over his first 212 Innings. But his arm is supposed to fall off too even though he's 6'7" tall. Short pitcher or tall pitcher. Doesn't matter. We don't like them because, pretty much, they're not Reds prospects.

    Jay Bruce performs at a very high level for his age in the lower levels of the minors and he gets kudos. Drew Stubbs performs poorly for his age at those same levels and we get excuses and a wait-and-see approach that ends up being nothing more than stalling while we wait for something...anything...in his game the reminds us of the value the Reds should have received with that pick. Hey, maybe one day he'll hit. Maybe one day Miguel Perez will hit. Maybe one day Rolando Roomes will hit.

    And now we wait on Mesoraco. He's a first-round catcher who will have to go against the odds to end up at that position should he end up in the Show. Ok. Fine. I can be a bit more patient with him because it's early, I don't have huge expectations of a catcher's offense, I'm waiting to hear more about his defense and ability to call a game, and because he's shown solid plate discipline thusfar. I'll be patient. He is young after all. That being said from Dan O'Brien to Wayne Krivsky, the Reds have been drafting as if they have all the time in the world to wait. But wait they can't.

    Considering the current team construction, the Reds have about a two-year window. They'd have hit a window earlier had they done what a bunch of really smart folks suggested from 2004-to-current with the draft. That's not Monday Morning Quarterbacking. That's just simple analysis. And it includes analysis that was produced at the moment those selections were made. There's nothing "hindsight" about any of it. Instead, it's about how probability sucks when you try to work against it.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch thatís over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.Ē
    --Ted Williams

  9. #98
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,944

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Ok, I have to chime in real fast. You want to talk about taking Lincecum being some great idea then you say how probability sucks when you try to work against it? Wow. Taking a pitcher that is 5'10 and listed at 155 is going with good odds? If you want to say taking Bailey was going against the odds over someone like Weaver (who wasn't just passed on because of his talent, but more so his agent and demands), then I am willing to listen to that. But you cant tell me taking a pitcher with the build of Lincecum, regardless of talent, was with the odds.

    Also, Pedro and Johan.... Well Johan weighs in at 210, a solid 50 pounds heavier than Tim. Pedro is currently listed at 195. I couldn't say what he was 10 years ago, but again, the odds are highly against short, skinny pitchers with unorthodox deliveries.

    Again, I have nothing against Lincecum. I love watching him pitch every chance I get. That said, he is not a Red and I am not going to play 'what if' every chance I get just because I can.

    Really. I am done this time.

  10. #99
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    11,492

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    How many prospects are available during each draft who have no flaws? As dougdirt pointed out (and thank you to him for saying what I was thinking in better ways than I could ever try), Lincecum had his own risk factors.

    Anyway, what if Lincecum were taken--who should they have picked?

    Do you post on fan websites of the other third of MLB teams who decided not to draft Lincecum and tell them how bad of a decision they made?

  11. #100
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    5,967

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    "if he hits" is a conversation we've had on this board for years. I don't think I've ever seen one of these guys learn to hit. I remember the "if he hits" discussion about Gookie dawkins while many on the board thought he was untouchable in a trade.
    One thing that Stubbs does have going for him that the others didn't is plate discipline. His ability to draw walks and get on base even though his bat hasn't done much developing gives him a much more reasonable chance. But your point is well taken. He has a long way to go, and considering his age, the odds of his bat reaching a high level is unlikely. I think Stubbs will eventually turn into a .350/.400/.750 type of player (similar to what people expect Denorfia to be) and being a useful starting CF when his defense and speed is factored in. But I doubt he ever becomes Mike Cameron/Torii Hunter. Maybe he will be a late bloomer like some scouts thought he would be, but I sure wouldn't bet on it. I think a solid career will be pretty likely.

    I will say it again though, that not picking Lincecum was a pretty obvious mistake IMO. A mistake that just about every poster here was against. Taking Stubbs over Lincecum was not a good pick, and even if Lincecum gets a major injury I would still consider it a bad choice because you need to take players that have the immense upside and closeness to the majors of Lincecum even if you expect an injury.

    I like Stubbs, and I appreciate what I think he will bring to the table even though he wasn't the right choice.

  12. #101
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,314

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Ok, I have to chime in real fast. You want to talk about taking Lincecum being some great idea then you say how probability sucks when you try to work against it? Wow. Taking a pitcher that is 5'10 and listed at 155 is going with good odds? If you want to say taking Bailey was going against the odds over someone like Weaver (who wasn't just passed on because of his talent, but more so his agent and demands), then I am willing to listen to that. But you cant tell me taking a pitcher with the build of Lincecum, regardless of talent, was with the odds.

    Also, Pedro and Johan.... Well Johan weighs in at 210, a solid 50 pounds heavier than Tim. Pedro is currently listed at 195. I couldn't say what he was 10 years ago, but again, the odds are highly against short, skinny pitchers with unorthodox deliveries.

    Again, I have nothing against Lincecum. I love watching him pitch every chance I get. That said, he is not a Red and I am not going to play 'what if' every chance I get just because I can.

    Really. I am done this time.
    Cueto isn't much bigger than Lincecum, by the way. People on this board tend to pick out things like stature and K/BB ratios for prospects of other organizations but fail to see these same stats when it comes to Cincy guys.

  13. #102
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,398

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Ok, I have to chime in real fast. You want to talk about taking Lincecum being some great idea then you say how probability sucks when you try to work against it? Wow. Taking a pitcher that is 5'10 and listed at 155 is going with good odds? If you want to say taking Bailey was going against the odds over someone like Weaver (who wasn't just passed on because of his talent, but more so his agent and demands), then I am willing to listen to that. But you cant tell me taking a pitcher with the build of Lincecum, regardless of talent, was with the odds.
    Taking a pitcher with the projection of Tim Lincecum was absolutely working on the plus side of probability. And the guy is 5'11". It's two inches shorter than Bob Gibson and one inch shorter than Mario Soto. As overused as the term "electric arm" is, Lincecum has one. Weaver is tall but also has an unorthodox delivery. You discounted Weaver because of his delivery. Now you're talking about signability even though the Reds have worked with Weaver's agent (as have all MLB teams) pretty consistently.

    Lincecum (aka "Tiny Tim" as you call him in an effort to debase) is too short and slight of frame. You've previously claimed that Weaver is destined to fail because of bad mechanics. But Bailey's gonna be an ace because he's tall (yet, he's sleight of frame) and throws a baseball harder than he actually throws a baseball and we should all wait and see on Drew Stubbs because his toe injury has demonstrably affected his hitting even though it obviously hasn't affected his running.

    Sorry, doug, but I'm not buying any of that.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch thatís over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.Ē
    --Ted Williams

  14. #103
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    11,492

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Cueto isn't much bigger than Lincecum, by the way. People on this board tend to pick out things like stature and K/BB ratios for prospects of other organizations but fail to see these same stats when it comes to Cincy guys.

    +

  15. #104
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,398

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    Anyway, what if Lincecum were taken--who should they have picked?
    Lincecum wasn't taken prior to selection #8. The draft handed the Reds a gift at that slot and they chose to ignore it.

    Do you post on fan websites of the other third of MLB teams who decided not to draft Lincecum and tell them how bad of a decision they made?
    Being a Reds fan, why would I possibly do that? And as an FYI- if you think I've just pulled Jered Weaver and Tim Lincecum out of a "hindsight" hat, I'd suggest you think again.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch thatís over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.Ē
    --Ted Williams

  16. #105
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    9,398

    Re: Drew Stubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Cueto isn't much bigger than Lincecum, by the way.
    Shhh...Cueto is actually very tall and well built. If he weren't, he wouldn't be a Reds top prospect.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch thatís over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.Ē
    --Ted Williams


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25