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Thread: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

  1. #1
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    Being a manager is a hard job, I'll admit and it certainly has its ups and downs. The same could be said for being a GM. I imagine both Jerry Narron and Wayne Krivsky could tell us more than we want to know about either. The thing that gets me is that, for some reason, there is some support for both men on this board. I want to know your perspective for my own mental health.

    I'll be the first to admit that I was early and strong in wanting Jack McKeon gone. I was wrong, but only after seeing what was to come later. McKeon is far and away better than what we've had since. Maybe it was the memory of Lou, I don't know. I didn't want Oester because I felt he couldn't handle the job (his maturity was in question) and we got Bob Boone (who shall remain nameless). Boone was a disaster and he turned into Miley who was worse or at least as bad. Upon Miley's dismissal, we got Narron because he was there. That's all. The owner of a 284-328 record as a manager (150-166 as a Red), he's shown he's prone to the bad decision, especially with pitching and batting orders. The argument that a manager is only as good as his players is valid, but this is a team that looks no worse than 15 other MLB teams and still we lose and lose and lose. Many of those losses can be attributed to Narron. Some day I'll have the time to research this more. Someday when he's probably gone and it won't matter to anyone.

    The same goes for Wayne Krivsky. There is so much support for him. I've looked at his moves as GM for the Reds and I can't see how anyone can support him. Early on, he acquired Bronson Arroyo and Brandon Phillips for Willie Mo Pena and a player I can't remember if there was one. Arroyo was a less than average player for the Pirates and the Red Sox in his time there and Phillips was a prospect for the Indians who didn't pan out. Both has large seasons for the Reds last year, but Arroyo has lost some of his luster because of overwork, if you listen to Reds fans. He started with a horrible bullpen (some of which went elsewhere to be somewhat successful--Todd Jones comes to mind) and has not been able to improve it. His big step was to trade a poor denfensive shortstop, a relief pitcher who once was the fans' darling, and a promising outfielder for two arms and two players. The first arm was injured when traded for (do to lack of knowledge or being hoodwinked by JimBo) and the other, a youngster who everyone has high hopes for, but has been on the DL all year, is still a relief pitcher who has not done one thing for the franchise.

    In the meantime, Krivsky has brought in some of the worst pitchers in the major leagues to pitch for the Reds. A lot of them had Minnesota ties (an old trick by new insurance agents--sell your family and friends, but then what) like Everyday Eddie and Kyle Loshe. Most forget Joe Mays and others. Not good. He signed Juan Castro, who simply is not more than fodder and extended the contracts of Narron, Cormier (who is out of baseball while we pay him), and Coffey (still in Louisville). To add to the insult, he signs Stanton, who was a closer for SF who was Danny Graves-like last year and trades for Kirk Saarloos, a pitcher who Oakland no longer wanted. The esult has been disaster.

    All I want to know from you is why to continue to think that these two men should continue in their positions. If you look across MLB, no franchise has been guilty of more bad moves than the Cincinnati Reds over the past 15 months that have gone sour. Moves that might help the team, I mean. What is it about them that makes you think things will get better? What have they done to give you confidence? I'm struggling here. I need to know.

    Thank you for your consideration.
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  3. #2
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons

    Ok where do I start. 1st let me say I agree with you on some of your points. These would be the ones that I don't/didn't.

    I wanted to keep McKeon at the time, because he got the best out of the players he was given. Greg Vaughan was given lots of credit for keeping guys in line but rest assured McKeon likely had something to do with it as well. As evidenced by results he got both before & after he was Red.

    Boone was a buffoon, I saw nothing of value in him.

    Miley was a guy who was undone by a lack of talent to some extent and by one fatal flaw he had. He didn't demand respect from his players and the Veterans on those teams took complete advantage and before long so did the rest of the team. As far as X's and O's go he wasn't all that bad and when he took over that putrid team after the firesale his undertalented and non-experienced unit played pretty well for their shortcomings. His record that '03 season? 22-35 for a WP% of .386 and that's w/o Griffey, Larkin, Harang (as we know him now) or Arroyo. That was with such stars as Smitherman, Stenson, Olmedo and Paul Wilson as our ace. What's this current crop of guys doing, how about a big 'ole 24-39 or a WP% of .381! Talk about underachieving.

    Jerry Narron needs to go, I do not disagree at all here! The reasons for it have been discussed ad nauseam so I'll make this short. He is Pedro Cerrano the Buddhist as described by his Kamikaze teammate. NO MARBLES!! And that goes for either region.

    However IMO Krivsky has done a better than average job of acquiring and keeping talent which is a GM's only real job in a perfect world. He has upgraded the talent on this team and organization in almost every way, shape or form. And just because he hasn't done it to our liking yet we crucify him after only a little over a year on the job. Let's just take a peek at what he has done.

    Acquired:
    A more Productive 1st base platoon than our previous 1st bagger.
    A more Productive 2nd baseman than our previous one.
    A just as productive (offensively speaking) SS and a far better defensive one.
    Done what he has had to do to get better production at 3rd both on offense and defense.
    Catcher to this point is about a wash.
    Re-signed a fan favorite in LF (who may not even deserve it)
    Is getting the best out of a 37 yr old, by moving him to RF so his defense doesn't hurt as much and he is the best offensive player he has been since 2000.
    A more far productive CF defensively with loads of offensive potential.

    Improved the starting pitching by leaps and bounds.
    And as bad as they have been we all know this is the best BP on paper we have had since thee Sullivan heydays. 5/2/05 massacre anyone? That BP had Danny Graves as it's closer for a short period of time, Uggh.

    Things he could be faulted for:
    Dealing Kearns and Lopez
    Dealing Cody Ross
    Dealing Brendan Harris
    Dealing Zach Ward

    I'd say what we have now is a much better team, even though they aren't playing like it.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  4. #3
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons

    I've had my coffee this morning, so I'll take a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    Being a manager is a hard job, I'll admit and it certainly has its ups and downs. The same could be said for being a GM. I imagine both Jerry Narron and Wayne Krivsky could tell us more than we want to know about either. The thing that gets me is that, for some reason, there is some support for both men on this board. I want to know your perspective for my own mental health.
    When it comes to Narron - they could fire him tommorrow and I wouldn't be upset. And if the Reds continue on the present course he will be IMHO. The "successes" (for lack of a better word) of the '06 season is why Narron is here in '07, and was given the chance. I saw no problem with that. But the more I've seen of him - his micro-managing style with the lineup, batting order, and especially the hap-hazard way he handles pitchers - I am not too pleased.

    He's Bob Boone with plastic surgery.


    The same goes for Wayne Krivsky. There is so much support for him.
    First off, and I've stated this since this new ownership took over.... they inherited a mess - some bad guaranteed contracts, as well as a farm system that is still so-so, and very little (spotty) talent on this team. There is no quick fix for this team. I'm sorry that disappoints some. But the only reason we came close last year was because it's a terrible division.

    How much time should any new ownership/GM be allowed to implement their plan? Being on the job approximately 15 months is fair? How many drafts has he been involved in?

    I've looked at his moves as GM for the Reds and I can't see how anyone can support him. Early on, he acquired Bronson Arroyo and Brandon Phillips for Willie Mo Pena and a player I can't remember if there was one. Arroyo was a less than average player for the Pirates and the Red Sox in his time there and Phillips was a prospect for the Indians who didn't pan out. Both has large seasons for the Reds last year, but Arroyo has lost some of his luster because of overwork, if you listen to Reds fans. He started with a horrible bullpen (some of which went elsewhere to be somewhat successful--Todd Jones comes to mind) and has not been able to improve it. His big step was to trade a poor denfensive shortstop, a relief pitcher who once was the fans' darling, and a promising outfielder for two arms and two players. The first arm was injured when traded for (do to lack of knowledge or being hoodwinked by JimBo) and the other, a youngster who everyone has high hopes for, but has been on the DL all year, is still a relief pitcher who has not done one thing for the franchise.
    No one denies that Krivsky hasn't made both some good moves and some questionable /bad moves. The guy has taken alot of gambles that is for sure. Some have panned out, some haven't, and some are probably "wait and see". When one looks at the volume of the moves he has made, there is bound to be some that won't pan out. He's taken some risks, and I don't mind that as long as they aren't risks that will hamper a team for the longterm. He hasn't. But I agree he has taken some gambles that haven't paid off.

    But where has he really committed the money/contracts?....

    He resigned Dunn, Harang, and extended Arroyo (4.3 mil/yr), Lohse (4.2 mil/yr), Gonzo (16 Mil/3 yrs), (Weathers 4.5 mil/2yrs), Conine (2 Mil/1 yr), extended Hatteberg for 1 yr (1.6 Mil), Stanton (5 Mil/2yrs).

    But the rest of the list of players he has signed involved no huge commitments of money/guaranteed contracts (the Moellers, Castros, etc). Now I won't argue with you that they haven't performed or added anything to this team; but my point is they were signed as utility "stopgap" players (backups), who could be dumped in a second, and who are not counted on as far as the future success of this team is not on their shoulders.

    In the meantime, Krivsky has brought in some of the worst pitchers in the major leagues to pitch for the Reds.
    Now that is not simply true. No one denies that he didn't take some risks (flyers) on pitchers; but they weren't the worst. And we all know that the pitching market has been thinner than Nicole Ritchie. Over this past winter, teams were out there scrambling and signing marginal pitchers to some ridiculous guaranteed contracts. I'm glad the Reds didn't take that route.

    like Everyday Eddie and Kyle Loshe.
    Eddie appeared in 15 games last year, 14 IPs, and a 1.29 ERA. Prior to that his career numbers speak for themselves. The Reds re-signed him for $500,000. Money wasted?

    Kyle Lohse is 28 yrs old. When he signed with the Reds he had a overall record of 51-57, with and ERA of 5. The Reds signed him for one year @ 4 Mil. Again - not a bad risk.

    When it comes to starting pitching...who should the Reds have seriously went after this past off-season? Who "fell through our grasp" or we missed the boat on?

    Cormier (who is out of baseball while we pay him)
    I'll give you that one.

    To add to the insult, he signs Stanton, who was a closer for SF who was Danny Graves-like last year
    I didn't like the Stanton signing; but his career numbers don't make him one of the worst....

    1079 IP - 1.34 WHIP 3.83 ERA overall . He was 7-7 with eight saves and a 3.99 ERA in 82 appearances with the Nationals and Giants last season. And in the last 7 days he has posted a 1.07 WHIP 1.92ERA.
    Kirk Saarloos, a pitcher who Oakland no longer wanted.
    How do you know that? He went 17-16 in the 2 years he was with the A's, with an ERA of 4.46. That is not terrible. Another pitcher we took a chance on, and not at a great risk (1 yr/1.2 Mil), while trading a low level minor league pitcher (Shafer).

    Take a look around the majors WV and how every team is scrambling for pitching, and has been. And a lot of them are taking chances and getting burned too. What is sinking the Cards and Yanks for example? That is not making excuses for the Reds. Just looking at the reality of the pitching situation in the majors right now. There are a lot of teams right now whose bullpens are killing them.

    I still say we have some talented young arms in this bullpen (minus a Weathers (who hasn't been bad) and Stanton). They aren't being handled properly, or getting the needed IPs. And I agree with a Brantley assessment from a few weeks ago.... they have the talent; but they need to "learn" how to pitch on the ML level. That takes patience and IPs. And in that sense, Naron is not the man. He goes with whoever seems to be hot.

    Overall - I'm giving Cast/Krivsky more time. I'm not denying some of the questionable moves they have made. But they have to be given more time - at least more then 15 months. Krivsky likes defense and strong pitching. The team he took over didn't have anything close to that to begin with. But where have the defensive liabilites been?...

    A young, yet talented 3bman (EE). The OF (Jr/Dunn).

    Catching. Ross has sucked it up. You miss LaRue? At 5.4 Mil/yr take a look at his numbers....

    AVG .167 | HR 2 | RBI 4 | OBP .233 | SLG .333 .566 OPS

    At least we're paying our crappy catcher, who isn't bad defensively IMO, and calls a good game, a lot less.

    Gonzo has had his spells early this season no doubt; but all players have that. But overall he's an improvement at SS. And his offensive performance so far has been a plus to this team

    AVG .262 | HR 11 | RBI 26 | OBP .309 | SLG .491 .800 OPS

    Will he maintian that? Has GABP helped? Don't know. Just enjoying watching him for now. But he's better then a Lopez IMHO.

    Have we improved 2B with Brandon Phillips? I think so.

    AVG .285 | HR 11 | RBI 34 | OBP .333 | SLG .498 .831 OPS

    There is not much Krivksy can do with the OF, as far as defense, when you've got Dunn and Jr. Getting Jr out of CF was a plus; but overall he's a mediocre OFer due to age. But what is Krivsky to do there? What are his options? Finding someone to take Jr would be nice, but near to impossible. And offensively he is performing, so I have no problem with him being there until a more viable option appears (Bruce in '09?).

    I think they are still being cautious with Josh Hamilton, and not wanting to throw him to the wolves, put too much pressure on him right away, after seeing what he has been through in his personal life. I'd use Hopper in a platoon with him in CF.

    1B - the Hatteberg/Conine platoon has produced....

    .282 BA .348 OB% .459 SLG% .808 OPS 10 HRs 42 RBIs

    Not bad.

    The bottomline is.... it's still the pitching.

    Arroyo has sucked since the second half of last year. But you're gonna fault Krivsky for taking a chance, trading away Pena, and signing him? I'm not. We needed pitching. What was available at the time. Not a bad gamble.

    Berlisle has been a pleasant surprise.

    Harang has been harang. Slightly off from last year with that 4.24 ERA. But still has a 6-2 record.

    Milton? Not Krivsky's doing, but the guy has a guaranteed contract. They had no other viable alternatives, so they had to run him out there and keep their fingers crossed. But they knew in the back of their minds, IMHO, that the guy is toast.

    Bailey? We'll see. How they handle this kid the rest of the season will be a HUGE indicator IMO of the attitude/approach of this FO. If they abuse him for the sake of trying to climb back ito this stinking division, and risk his career/longterm plans, then they are IDIOTS.

    But IMHO, this team is fixable. Just not in '07, and probably '08. We are going to have to have some patience with some of these young players (EE, BP, Hamilton, Bailey), get rid of some of the fodder, and start looking at what young talent we have in the farms (Votto, etc).
    Last edited by GAC; 06-10-2007 at 08:00 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  5. #4
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    But where has he really committed the money/contracts?....

    He resigned Dunn, Harang, and extended Arroyo (4.3 mil/yr), Lohse (4.2 mil/yr), Gonzo (16 Mil/3 yrs), (Weathers 4.5 mil/2yrs), Conine (2 Mil/1 yr), extended Hatteberg for 1 yr (1.6 Mil), Stanton (5 Mil/2yrs).
    What kind of math are you using for that Arroyo extension? He signed a 2 year, $25 million extension.

    Also, don't forget about the Rheal Deal and Moeller.

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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    Rome wasn't built in two years. And neither will be the Reds farm system. What O'Brien started four years ago is starting to reaching the majors. Homer Bailey was the beginning. There will be others to come.

    But Krivsky has had two amateur drafts under his belt. It will take at least another two seasons to see the results come to Cincinnati. So when you think about it, it takes about five years before you see the results of the farm system.

    I'm not saying the Reds aren't on the right track but patience is once again the word. If Krivsky can move Dunn and/or Griffey at the trading deadline, that will go a long way in restructuring the ballclub.
    If you think small, you'll go nowhere in life.

  7. #6
    Member Marc D's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    I just look at the body of work in his time as the GM. The negatives are a mile long and don't need to be rehashed, the positives are BP, JH and Arroyo. As far as the 18 month thing goes, I agree no one would have us contending in that short a period of time.

    That said, if you look at the moves he has made to get us to where we need to be you don't see a very pretty picture. I don't need to see but 1 or 2 dead bodies come out of a doctors office before I start to question his abilities regardless of his credentials or tenure.

    If WK makes some solid moves at the deadline and rids himself of Narron by the end of '08 then I'll reevaluate my opinion of him. If he does nothing or makes moves that resemble the ones he has made in the past then there can be no doubt he's in over his head.

    Untill then its The Trade, Narron and the pen when I think of WK and he gets a big fat F so far.

  8. #7
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    What kind of math are you using for that Arroyo extension? He signed a 2 year, $25 million extension.
    I simply got his yearly salary (2007) from ESPN. But here are the other details on his extension and what it involves....

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2758621

    Arroyo gets base salaries of $4,125,000 this year and $3.95 million in 2008, figures set under the old contract. The extension includes a $2.5 million signing bonus that will be paid next year. Arroyo will get salaries of $9.5 million in 2009 and $11 million in 2010. There is a club option at $11 million for 2011 with a $2 million buyout. The option can escalate to $13 million, based on innings.

    When Krivksy did this, every Reds fan was ecstatic and glad they spent the money. Now that he has been struggling it's a bad deal? You can't have it both ways.

    Also, don't forget about the Rheal Deal and Moeller.
    I didn't. Read my post above again.

    And we have $700,000 invested in Moeller. No great investment there. He is a peripheral player that won't be here at some point. He's not the problem either. But quality catchers are in short supply (availabilty) in MLB. Aren't you glad we still don't have LaRue (see his numbers/salary above)?
    Last edited by GAC; 06-10-2007 at 10:21 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  9. #8
    Your killin' me Smalls! StillFunkyB's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    I do not support Narron at all. I want him gone. Last night at the game I got this bad feeling that Narron was going to pinch hit Castro in the 9th, because as Adam Dunn was sent on deck I could see Juan with a bat and helmet walking in the dugout.

    I really don't want to see them fire Krivsky yet. This team was in such a mess, and firing your GM every couple of years isn't going to help it get better any faster, IMHO. Now if he pulls off another couple of dumb trades I will probably change my mind. Especially if it involves Dunn, and the Reds get a bunch of doo doo like they did with Majewski.

    Another note on last nights game... There were too many freakin Indians fans there!

  10. #9
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    OK. My turn.

    I mostly agree with WVREDSFAN. To catch-up on the history a little.

    1. Jack McKeon did a really good job here IMO. He seemed to jell nicely with the players, the town and the media. He got some good production out of a good group that grew-up together under his guidance right before our eyes. But then the Griffey trade changed the entire dynamic. Not only did a couple decent young players who fit in the mix get subtracted and the cash commitment wipe out any chance to improve the pitching staff (I think Lindner pulled the rug out from under Bowden on that one), but my interpretation of some of the incidents that occurred and the comments of players that left was that the clubhouse become a sour atmosphere. This atmosphere was not specifically because of anything Griffey did, but because now there seemed to be a small contingent of players who undermined the manager's authority (I do not think they did this intentionally) by having the direct ear of the GM. The manager became caught in the middle and IMO lost his effectiveness. I blame this entirely on Bowden and not the players themselves. In the end, it just wasn't working and either McKeon or Bowden needed to go (I think the wrong one stayed behind).

    2. Bob Boone was the worst type of Manager possible. It seems that everyday he seemed to need to meddle with something in an effort to prove what a genious he was. I think he's a good comp for Narron.

    3. As far as Dave Miley goes, I agree with Mario-Rijo (welcome back to ORG BTW Mario)


    Miley was a guy who was undone by a lack of talent to some extent and by one fatal flaw he had. He didn't demand respect from his players and the Veterans on those teams took complete advantage and before long so did the rest of the team. As far as X's and O's go he wasn't all that bad and when he took over that putrid team after the firesale his undertalented and non-experienced unit played pretty well for their shortcomings. His record that '03 season? 22-35 for a WP% of .386 and that's w/o Griffey, Larkin, Harang (as we know him now) or Arroyo. That was with such stars as Smitherman, Stenson, Olmedo and Paul Wilson as our ace.
    Once the firesale moves a couple veterans out and its time to audition and nurture some kids, there could be a lot worse choices than Miley as an interim caretaker, but as an actual Manager, he seemed to be in over his head. The Peter principle applies IMO.

    4. On to Narron. I said in the game thread that I'm in permanent Fire Narron mode. My comments about Bob Boone apply and he scares the heck out me with:
    A. His mishandling of pitchers. I hope Harang, Arroyo, Bailey etc surivive his imcompetence.
    B. His way of dealing with younger players. See EdE, Deno, the young pen guys as examples.

    5. Finally to Krivsky. There is no question that the team is better positioned for a core group of young talent and developing minor leaguers coupled with some upcoming payroll flexability to move into contender status. What I'm not sure of is how much is due to Krivsky and his minions and how much is just the new regime riding the wave of events. IMO Krivsky gets a lot of credit for picking some low hanging fruit off the tree and developments over time from things he inherited. I'll give Krivsky some credit for the low hanging fruit moves. He picked some good fruit, but make no mistake, it was low hanging fruit.

    A. The Arroyo trade was a no brainer brought about by the need to get Dunn's atrocious glove off of 1B, move Wily Mo to make room and add a competent major league starter. Personally, in the context of time, I think Krivsky overpaid a little. He had the low cost player that was penciled in as a starter and counted on for some big production while Boston had the guy who was put into a mop-up role with a contract that they wanted to move. I think he should have gotten more.

    B. Phillips and Hamilton were more astute moves IMO. These both qualify as one time uber-prospects who had faded into oblivion. The Reds had three veterans competing for time at 2B (Womack, Aurilia and Freel) when Phillips was acquired. It would have been easy to pass. I give WK credit for getting him. Drafting Hamilton was a move that seemed pretty surprising to some, but my guess is that other teams were also eyeing him or WK would not have felt the need to trade up with Chicago to get him. Kudos for identifying him and doing what it took.

    C. Other low hanging fruit moves were nothing special IMO even though guys like Ross and Hatte have worked out well. Those are balanced by making bad choices on Cody Ross, Brendan Harris, Juan Castro, Rheal Cormier, etc.

    D. When Krivsky tried to move to the next level he showed his limitations IMO. We've over discussed the abomination known as "the trade." For me, it was the off-season moves to help the pitching staff that did me in. This team was a solid number 3 starter and a decent pen arm or two from being in a much different position right now. Krivsky chose to rely on full seasons from the trade guys, Cormier and Lohse, supplemented with re-signing Weathers, adding Stanton and trading for Saarloos. Getting Saarloos was the right idea, just the wrong guy. WK need to go after a couple undervalued Arms with upside and get one established top 3 in the rotation type starter. He spent a lot of money and didn't do any of those things. BTW, David Weathers has been wonderful this year, but I still am not high on what he brings to the mound and wonder if we'll see a big drop in the near future. Of course over use will probably be blamed so we'll never know if it happens,

    These moves aside, for me WK's job is now entirely dependent on what he does with Narron. If he sticks with him much longer, then I think both he and Narron shoud be fired. If he acts in the near future to stop the insanity, then I'd be willing to wait and see a little longer. Make no mistake though. The perception of a brighter future from youth and payflex is much more due to the players WK inherited (Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Fisher, Cueto, Pelland, Medlock, etc) and the passage of time (Milton, Griffey, etc.) than it is any of his doing. If he sticks with Narron and his pitcher abuse, he's likely to screw that all up.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    If you look across MLB, no franchise has been guilty of more bad moves than the Cincinnati Reds over the past 15 months that have gone sour
    That's some tasty hyperbole.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    When Krivksy did this, every Reds fan was ecstatic and glad they spent the money. Now that he has been struggling it's a bad deal? You can't have it both ways.
    I wasn't a big fan of the Arroyo extension. They had him under control this season and next...no reason to extend him after one year.

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    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    Honestly if you are going to throw around hyperbole like like Kyle Lohse and Eddie Guardado being two of "the worst pitchers in the major leagues" and that he traded for a guy (Arroyo) "who was less than average", and blame him for letting go a guy (Todd Jones) who was traded by the previous GM I'm not sure how to respond. Sure, things are going poorly and Krivsky has made some bad decisions (in addition to some very good ones) but I'm constantly amazed by the reactionary hand wringing done by folks here and the useless hyperbole it spawns. In short, if you want to have an honest discussion about the merits of Krivksy's tenure maybe you ought to start with a little honesty yourself rather than a bunch of overbearing claptrap.

    As for Narron, I've got nothing. That dude should have been gone yesterday.
    Last edited by pedro; 06-10-2007 at 12:02 PM.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  14. #13
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Honestly if you are going to throw around hyperbole like like Kyle Lohse and Eddie Guardado being two of "the worst pitchers in the major leagues" and that he traded for a guy (Arroyo) "who was less than average", and blame him for letting go a guy (Todd Jones) who was traded by the previous GM I'm not sure how to respond. Sure, things are going poorly and Krivsky has made some bad decisions (in addition to some very good ones) but I'm constantly amazed by the reactionary hand wringing done by folks here and the useless hyperbole it spawns. In short, if you want to have an honest discussion about the merits of Krivksy's tenure maybe you ought to start with a little honesty yourself rather than a bunch of overbearing claptrap.

    As for Narron, I've got nothing. That dude should have been gone yesterday.
    '
    Those were my opinions. Nothing more. I never intended to label Lohse and Guardado "the worst pitchers in the major leagues," but I meant that to be Kim, Mays, and a few others. One of the reasons why the electronic discussion breaks down true meaning sometimes.

    I consider Arroyo (as I now see it based on performance lately) a less than average pitcher. That's my opinion. That's as honest as I can be. You have yours and I have mine. No need to question my integrity. And the Todd Jones mention was just an example I sould have not used. Maybe I should have used Franklin and Hancock as examples. Is that honest?

    I certainly do not mind anyone disagreeing with me, but rather than attack me, I would prefer the apologists to give me their opinions. Most have done that and I thank you. I now have a better understanding of why people feel like they do. Many agree with me and many don't. What else is new?
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  15. #14
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    Those who support Krivsky seem to be blind to the fact that this team now has the 3rd worst record in baseball. Last season, he got the job late in the off-season and made a few moves which worked out pretty well. I think everyone believed in Wayne at that point. He just got there and the team was playing extremely well. We all thought that this guy would bring winning back to Cincy with more time. He had just gotten here and brought us Phillips, Arroyo and Ross. He could do no wrong.

    Fast forward to June 10, 2007. The team is horrible. The bullpen is worse than last year's debacle. The only teams in baseball with worse records are KC and Texas. Yes, Tampa is 4.5 games in front of the Reds.

    The Wayne faction of the board loves to talk about how he's brought Hamilton, Arroyo and Phillips on board. In addition, I've been told numerous times that he's only been here "__________ months." The bottom line is that the team has had the following winning percentages:

    2005 (O'Brien's last season): .451
    2006 (Wayne's first season): .494
    2007 (currently): .381

    Ridiculous. Now...if Wayne had stripped this team and improved the farm system in the process, I would think that most fans would take no issue with the current record. But the saddest part is that he tried to improve the team. Last season, Cincy's 2006 payroll was roughly $60 million. This season, they started with a $69 million payroll. Net difference:+$9,665,965. (numbers courtesy of http://blog.sportscolumn.com/story/2007/4/9/1367/60158)

    Net difference in winning percentage? over -.100

    Can we categorically say that he has improved the farm system through the 2 drafts he has been responsible for? Probably too soon to truly assess that. Can we say that he has brought young players in who look to make this team better in the next 1-2 years? I can't see it at all. Can we say that he has made the team better on the field? That would be a huge no.

    So what has Krivsky given us as Reds fans in his first 1.5 years? I don't see much. Bob can choose and wait and give him another 1.5 years to turn it around. But will that help or just be another 1.5 years for Krivsky to truly massacre the fan base?

  16. #15
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: OK, give me your reasons for supporting Narron and Krivsky

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    '
    Those were my opinions. Nothing more. I never intended to label Lohse and Guardado "the worst pitchers in the major leagues," but I meant that to be Kim, Mays, and a few others. One of the reasons why the electronic discussion breaks down true meaning sometimes.

    I consider Arroyo (as I now see it based on performance lately) a less than average pitcher. That's my opinion. That's as honest as I can be. You have yours and I have mine. No need to question my integrity. And the Todd Jones mention was just an example I sould have not used. Maybe I should have used Franklin and Hancock as examples. Is that honest?

    I certainly do not mind anyone disagreeing with me, but rather than attack me, I would prefer the apologists to give me their opinions. Most have done that and I thank you. I now have a better understanding of why people feel like they do. Many agree with me and many don't. What else is new?
    I questioned the integrity of your post, not you personally.

    And for the record "apologists" is a loaded term that shouldn't be used either. It assumes an intellectual superiority that is neither appreciated nor warranted. That's my opinion.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun


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