Turn Off Ads?
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Jeter vs. Rose

  1. #1
    Haunted by walks
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    6,684

    Jeter vs. Rose

    This blogger Baseball Crank points out that Derek Jeter came into this season only two hits behind Pete Rose at the same age of 32. Even so, it will be highly unlikely that Jeter will catch him.

    http://baseballcrank.com/archives2/2...ll_jeter_1.php

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,834

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    I was surprised to see that Rose didn't even make the top ten list for most hits at age 32, which really says something about how Rose later just kept on cranking out hits as he aged. Jeter has a terrific shot at 3000 hits, and may get to 3500, but I would be very surprised to see him challenge the 4000 hit barrier.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  4. #3
    First Time Caller SunDeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    5,394

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    I guess if Jeter sticks around long enough, becomes a player/manager and puts himself in over a younger, better hitter then he'll catch Pete.
    Next Reds manager, second shooter. --Confirmed on Redszone.

  5. #4
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    So here's a question.

    Who's better overall?

    Jeter or Rose?

    As much as I despise what Jeter does in the field, I give him the nod offensively over Rose.

    That being said, I guess I would pick Derek Jeter over Pete Rose.

  6. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,643

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlifeman21 View Post
    As much as I despise what Jeter does in the field, I give him the nod offensively over Rose.
    ohhh. this is one of my favorite drums to bang on. If you would take Jeter over Rose, it's because you don't understand the nature of era effects and how depressed offensive numbers were in the 60's. I'm guessing you're familiar with OPS+ it's a function of OPS Normalized to take out Era dependant effects. 100 is league average...Good is more than that, an OPS+ of 150 will get you considered for league MVP.

    Rose and Jeter are good comparables because they both became regulars at 22.

    Age Player A Player B
    22 101 101
    23 104 80
    24 126 127
    25 161 116
    26 123 121
    27 125 152
    28 113 158
    29 127 128
    30 116 127
    31 121 134
    32 138 138

    Lets say if there's only a point or two difference it's a tie.
    I've got 5 ties.
    Player A clearly outperformed B in two years.
    Player B clearly outperformed A in four years.

    B is Pete. Now Jeter is playing at short and sure there's some value to that, but with the bat, you want Pete.

    More interestingly Pete's age 32 season was in 1973. That's right. That's the depth of Pete's career. We haven't even got to the great 75,76 teams at this point let alone the years where he was contributing to the phillies or "a player/manager and puts himself in over a younger, better hitter"

    Take Jeter's career and double it (allowing a decline) and you have Rose.

    As to the younger/better hitter comment. You certainly can't blame Pete for 84 and 85. So the complaint really comes down to 230 at bats in 1986 when he finally did decide to retire. If Nick Esasky had actually hit well that year, Rose may well have decided to hang it up sooner. By that point, he already had his records and he certainly wouldn't be the first manager to try and get playing time to an over the hill former star.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  7. #6
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    10,182

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    I think they are comparable to some extent. Although Pete played the first half of his career on average teams while Jeter played the first half of his career on several world champion teams. If you look at what Jeter has to do it seems unprobable that he hits even 4000 hits. It is also amazing that Pete played the second half of his career on the body friendly astro truf. To be honest I do not think Jeter will hang in their long enough to hit even 4000. Players in today's game are financially set after their first arb eligable contract.

  8. #7
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,825

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    Pete Rose age 35

    2762 hits

    Richie Ashburn age 35

    2574 hits.

    Richie retired after age 35, Pete played ten more years, Richie went to Philly to broadcast, when Jeter plays 13 more years give me a call... we'll count then.

  9. #8
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    7,193

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I was surprised to see that Rose didn't even make the top ten list for most hits at age 32, which really says something about how Rose later just kept on cranking out hits as he aged. Jeter has a terrific shot at 3000 hits, and may get to 3500, but I would be very surprised to see him challenge the 4000 hit barrier.
    My friend brought up this Rose/Jeter stat to me a few weeks ago, and I actually didn't believe him. Now I see that Pete had so many hits later in his career. I don't think Jeter will catch him.

    So my next question is: when does the steroid-crazy public start talking about the effect of greenies on the record books? They don't have nearly the effect that steroids do, but they certainly helped along old and tired players. Now they're banned. Rose had greenies; Jeter doesn't. I'm not passing judgment here, just bringing up a relevant point that may be discussed in the future.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  10. #9
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,834

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by vaticanplum View Post
    My friend brought up this Rose/Jeter stat to me a few weeks ago, and I actually didn't believe him. Now I see that Pete had so many hits later in his career. I don't think Jeter will catch him.

    So my next question is: when does the steroid-crazy public start talking about the effect of greenies on the record books? They don't have nearly the effect that steroids do, but they certainly helped along old and tired players. Now they're banned. Rose had greenies; Jeter doesn't. I'm not passing judgment here, just bringing up a relevant point that may be discussed in the future.
    It's a relevant point, but probably too speculative to do much with. While I am also very critical of current and recently retired players who used steroids, I also have little doubt but that a tremendous number of major leaguers in Rose's time, including probably Pete himself, would've have used steroids had they been available then.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. #10
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    7,193

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    It's a relevant point, but probably too speculative to do much with. While I am also very critical of current and recently retired players who used steroids, I also have little doubt but that a tremendous number of major leaguers in Rose's time, including probably Pete himself, would've have used steroids had they been available then.
    Right, and I'm not arguing the moral aspect or the choice. I don't begrudge Rose or anyone else at the time using greenies; I think they were quite commonplace and not looked on as serious drugs with long-term effects. I just think it's something worth considering in terms of numbers. I do not believe that Rose had all of those hits so late in life due to sheer will. And it's an element that Jeter's generation will lack -- and people almost never talk about this.

    Who knows what's really going on now, what major league players might be engaged in that we don't even know about, but there's at least a chance that we're about to face one of the "purest" eras that baseball has ever known. Yes, players have benefits now that early ones didn't (air travel, diet and nutrition know-how, etc.) but in terms of what they do to the ball and what they put in their bodies, these players might in the future be less doctored than any in a while because of testing and public uproar. Which is particularly poignant when you consider that someone like Alex Rodriguez has a good chance of shattering a pile of records if he stays healthy.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  12. #11
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,437

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    I don't think you could put greenies in the performance enhancing category any more than you could put any recreational drug in it. Did they help a sluggish player out every once in a while? Yeah, but it's not like they made someone stronger, just more alert. If you wanted to get technical, you could say it enhanced performance but did it enhance them any more than downing a few cans of Red Bull or several cups of coffee?

    I think a good comparison to Rose would be Roger Clemens. Both played at an above average level when most players at their age were retired. Plus they got to pick their spots a lot of the time. Pete only batted against right handed pitchers for the most part and Clemens only plays half the season.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  13. #12
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,834

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I don't think you could put greenies in the performance enhancing category any more than you could put any recreational drug in it. Did they help a sluggish player out every once in a while? Yeah, but it's not like they made someone stronger, just more alert. If you wanted to get technical, you could say it enhanced performance but did it enhance them any more than downing a few cans of Red Bull or several cups of coffee?

    I think a good comparison to Rose would be Roger Clemens. Both played at an above average level when most players at their age were retired. Plus they got to pick their spots a lot of the time. Pete only batted against right handed pitchers for the most part and Clemens only plays half the season.
    I agree that greenies are not really that comparable to steroids. Rose would've played every game he could, even if all he had for stimulation was a few pots of coffee.
    Rose only started "picking his spots" once he was 43 years old. He rarely missed a game prior to then, and when his manager didn't start him, or even took him out of a game early, Rose *****ed. Starting in 1974, when Rose was 33 years old, through 1983, when he was 42, here are the games per season Rose played in: 163, 162, 162, 162, 159, 163, 162, 107, 162 and 151. He "only" played in 159 games in 1978, and complained about missing those three games, and really gripped when Sparky removed him early from the season's final game, which eventually went into extra innings and possibly cost him another 200 hit season. He "only" played in 107 games in 1981 because the Phillies only had 107 games, due to a player's strike. He "only" played in 151 games in 1983 because he wasn't hitting that well, but even then he complained about missing 11 games. Until he turned age 43, Rose tried to play every game, every inning.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  14. #13
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,825

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I don't think you could put greenies in the performance enhancing category any more than you could put any recreational drug in it. Did they help a sluggish player out every once in a while? Yeah, but it's not like they made someone stronger, just more alert. If you wanted to get technical, you could say it enhanced performance but did it enhance them any more than downing a few cans of Red Bull or several cups of coffee?

    I think a good comparison to Rose would be Roger Clemens. Both played at an above average level when most players at their age were retired. Plus they got to pick their spots a lot of the time. Pete only batted against right handed pitchers for the most part and Clemens only plays half the season.
    This won't be a lengthy diatribe about steroid paranoia, hypocrisy or the full appreciation of skill. We already went through that with McGwire. Just one request: Spare us the glorification of the Henry Aaron-Willie Mays era as a paradise of honesty and clean living. It wasn't. Steroids were available to athletes long before that, if they had the inclination, and as ballplayers ingested amphetamines like so many cups of coffee, they carried on the great American tradition -- rampant in every walk of life -- of enhancing performance.

    I'm pretty sure Sosa loaded up on steroids like a crazy man, putting him in the company of thousands. It's just personal speculation, but I'd put McGwire and Barry Bonds into that category, as well. And they all go straight to the Hall. On the playing field with countless others enjoying the benefits (and oblivious to the health issues bound to surface later), they dominated their era. You can't imagine how many juiced-up pitchers were overmatched by their talent and resolve. Until you've stepped into the box against an angry guy throwing 98-mph fastballs under your chin, you have no right to question their command of the game.

    Baseball isn't clean now, it never was, and it never will be. So we find the people who mattered. Sosa was a full-fledged star. He looked and acted the part. He made a man (at least temporarily) out of McGwire. He had people grabbing their heads in amazement, spinning yarns to their children, even crying tears of joy. He hit 60 or more homers three times. He dazzled. He entertained. These are the qualities that make Hall of Famers, the stuff that separates the truly influential players from Rafael Palmeiro (to put the era in perspective), Phil Niekro or Craig Biggio.

    "Oh, but Sosa cheated," you say. Not really. He didn't embezzle funds from the corporate stash. He didn't steal a credit card and impersonate another person for eight months. He just played baseball.
    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...PG3AQKC1V1.DTL

  15. #14
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    San Marcos, CA
    Posts
    13,984

  16. #15
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    22,834

    Re: Jeter vs. Rose

    I've never bought the argument that because some ballplayers forty years ago took greenies we shouldn't worry about some players today taking steroids. To me, it is similar to arguing that because some people got away with jaywalking and parking tickets forty years ago we have no right to complain about the armed robbers in our midst today.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25