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Thread: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

  1. #16
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Matt Belisle's last starting season was at AAA in 2004. Here are some of his numbers from that season -- 5.26 ERA. 162.2 IP. 192 hits allowed.

    I don't know why people think he is going to be an effective starter at the major league level.
    He is older, has a better idea of what he is doing, has the experience and has better stuff now than he did 3 years ago?

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  3. #17
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    He is older, has a better idea of what he is doing, has the experience and has better stuff now than he did 3 years ago?
    He is also is facing major league hitters, rather than the AAA guys to whom he gave up a 5.26 ERA and 192 hits in 162 innings.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-03-2007 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #18
    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Here is what I do. Livingston and Dumatrait are brought up to the big club. Dumatrait is inserted in Belisle's slot and Livingston pitches long relief.
    That's just dumb. I think everyone on FSN and WLW is required by contract to get excited everytime Phil Dumatrait is mentioned. If he was black, maybe you could attribute it to some bizzare form of restitution, but he's not, so I have no reasonable explanation. The guy is not a good pitcher and unless something wierd happens, will never be a passable major league starter. A K:BB ratio of 1.35 at AAA does not translate to major league success.

    Why replace Belisle? Unless I made a mistake, which isn't all that unlikely I guess, Belisle's DIPS ERA is sitting at a tidy 4.55 right now. His ERA's a little higher, but his peripherals are darn solid for a back rotation starter. He's also still pretty young and has good stuff leading me to believe that his cieling is not yet reached.
    Last edited by paintmered; 07-04-2007 at 03:06 AM. Reason: Explicit reference

  5. #19
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    He also is facing major league hitters, rather than the AAA guys to whom he gave up a 5.26 ERA and 192 hits in 162 innings.
    And he is also more mature, has better stuff and more experience. He is also healthy for the first time in a long time.

    Matt Belisle currently sports a 4.08 Defensive independent ERA. That suggests that he is and will continue to perform fine.

  6. #20
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Agreed. Belisle should be penned (not penciled) in for the #5 starter for the next three years.

    If things pan out as planned, Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, and Cueto will occupy those other four spots for the said time frame.
    Go BLUE!!!

  7. #21
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Matt Belisle is a better pitcher then both Livingston and Dumatrait. In fact, I'd rather see Gardner or Ramirez up here before Livingston or Dumatrait. The reason everyone likes them is because they are left handed, but that doesn't change that they are not good.

    Replacing Belisle with either of them would be a horrible move by the Reds.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  8. #22
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    I like Benihana's idea... I think this could work.

  9. #23
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    I think Belisle is perfect for long relief and spot starts. I just don't think he's quite good enough to be a #3 or #4 starter. Maybe a #5 starter, but I'd rather have someone with a higher ceiling there.

  10. #24
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    I leave Belisle in the rotation. I really believe he has what it takes to be a pretty good back-of-the-rotation starter. I call up Dumatrait to take Lohse's place once he is traded. I call up Livingston to take Homer Bailey's place in the rotation after sending him back down to AAA to work on his secondary stuff. I do everything I can to trade Hatteberg (package him with Weathers?) and bring up Votto by the end of the month to be the EVERYDAY 1B for the rest of the year.


    For the rest of the year, I go with a rotation of

    Harang
    Arroyo
    Dumatrait
    Belisle
    Livingston

    I also call up Calvin Medlock and Jared Burton to pitch in the bullpen alongside McBeth, Coffey, and Coutlangous for the rest of the year. Let's use this worthless season to see what we got.
    I like this plan. Bailey needs to go back down.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  11. #25
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I like this plan. Bailey needs to go back down.
    The PR stunt that was the promotion of Homer Bailey should have never happened in the first place.

    Over the course of the rest of 2007, there's a slew of guys in AAA and AA who should get some sort of audition at the big league level.

    2007 is over, 2008 doesn't look good, so let's look ahead to 2009.

  12. #26
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I like this plan. Bailey needs to go back down.
    Homer Bailey has nothing left to prove at AAA. The only reason he would be sent down is to work on his pitches; he can do that here against major league hitters. Sending him down might damage his confidence. Lohse should be traded, and I would give Dumatrait or Livingston his spot. Belisle has done very well in the no. 5 spot in the rotation

  13. #27
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Homer Bailey has nothing left to prove at AAA. The only reason he would be sent down is to work on his pitches; he can do that here against major league hitters. Sending him down might damage his confidence. Lohse should be traded, and I would give Dumatrait or Livingston his spot. Belisle has done very well in the no. 5 spot in the rotation
    He shouldn't be "working on his pitches" during a major league game. He should work on them in the minors and throw them in the majors with confidence when refined. He also needs to complete his development. This is a kid that has never thrown much more than 140 innings in a season. He hasn't been fully developped physically to handle a starter's load in MLB IMO. I'm more concerned about that at this point than the break on his curve quite frankly.

    In AAA he can:

    1. Have his work and pitch load managed w/o regard to a the game sutuation as much and get to the 170 to 175 inning level that the natural development course calls for in 2007.

    2. Work on his command and secondary stuff.

    3. Provide a major league spot to look at others who require a more immediate cut bait decision by the end of spring, 2008 (options and all) like Livingston, Dumatrait and EZ.

    4. Stop accumulating service time while accomplishing the above. He's had his taste. He can come back up in 2008 (maybe September if he hasn't pushed his upper inning limit) with a better array of pitches (I hope) and a better physical preparation for his role.

    I'd like to push the timeline forward and get his "lump taking period" out of the way in this lost season, but there is still plenty more to do in AAA IMO and it has nothing to do with proving himself statistically. It has more to do with refinement and physical preparation. 2008 is his year to take his lumps in the majors with hopefully 2009 his year to take off.
    Last edited by mth123; 07-04-2007 at 06:32 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #28
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    What is the opinion on EZ. Is he out of the picture for the future???

  15. #29
    Member chicoruiz's Avatar
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    I'd love to see Keppinger up here instead of Castro, but I see no evidence that Keppinger can play short, and having your starting 2B be your only backup SS (and an iffy one at that) seems a little dicey to me.
    "In baseball, you don't know nothin'"...Yogi Berra

  16. #30
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    Re: Reds should promote two starting pitchers and more

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Agreed. Belisle should be penned (not penciled) in for the #5 starter for the next three years.

    If things pan out as planned, Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, and Cueto will occupy those other four spots for the said time frame.
    I, for one, hope the pen runs out of ink soon. And I hope it doesn't take the next three years. League now hitting over .300 against Matt with men on base, according to Grande.


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