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Thread: UFC Discussion

  1. #16
    The Latin Heartthrob Javy Pornstache's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Of the fights I picked, I went 5-1 with Cro Cop being the only loss. Actually, I should have gone 4-2 because Matt Hamill did not lose that fight last night.

    I very much enjoyed the Rampage/Henderson fight, and I thought it was a pretty good fight. I'd expect Henderson to go down to middleweight now (is he fighting the winner of Rich/Silva next?) and probably stay there permanently.

    Also, what's up with Cro Cop? I know he hates to cut weight, but it looks like he could use dropping down to light-heavyweight to try to get back on the winning track.
    Regarding Henderson, it'd be nice for him to stay at middleweight, you'd think he's definitely better off in that weight class, though traditionally he's fought better at 205, despite always being the smaller guy in a fight (incidentally, the Rampage fight is the ONLY time in his light heavyweight fights that he's actually approached the weight limit at weigh-in time - he came in at 204, whereas he normally is anywhere from 195-199). It'd work out perfectly for him to fight the Silva-Franklin winner if they want to unify those titles, especially since there's absolutely no clear-cut top contender after the Silva-Franklin fight. Problem is, coming off a loss to Rampage (even though a highly competitive fight), it'd be hard marketing-wise to put him right back in another main event situation, especially to newer fans that don't know much of Hendo's credentials.

    Who else can possibly be the next top contender at middleweight? Paulo Filho would've been the definitive answer, but they assigned him to WEC when Zuffa absorbed his contract from PRIDE. There's an undercard fight at the Cincinnati show in October between Yushin Okami and Jason MacDonald, who are possibly the third and fourth-ranked middleweights in the UFC right now; however, if Franklin were to win the title back, there'd be a problem having him the winner of the fight so quickly, seeing as he's already beaten both of them in 2007. Evan Tanner and Dean Lister are fighting in December, and both certainly have the credentials to be a top contender, so it may be the winner of that to get the next shot - which means a chance of Franklin-Tanner III. I really don't see any other options from within the UFC currently.

    Regarding Cro Cop and a weight drop, that's been a good idea for years now, but as M2 alluded to, he's just not the same fighter he was. He's always fought at 215-220, which is the same weight most light heavyweights rehydrate to after coming in at 205. But I don't think he's losing to the likes of Gabriel Gonzaga and Cheick Kongo because of size differential (taking nothing away from either of those fighters). There's more to it than that, and Mirko has spoken of retirement in the not-too-distant past, and I wouldn't be shocked if he did retire within the next year. What else are you going to do with him? Coming off two losses, who they gonna sell his next fight against? He's signed to the richest free agent contract in MMA history, so it's not like he can be written off to preliminary bouts or anything.
    Last edited by Javy Pornstache; 09-10-2007 at 12:53 AM.

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  3. #17
    The Latin Heartthrob Javy Pornstache's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    He looks like a fighter who's taken too much punishment.

    Kongo never caught him with a haymaker, but a few times you could see that shots to the head were shutting down Cro Cop's circuitry. You see this happen with boxers too. Basically what happens is the primary brain cells that control parts of his motor function are gone and it's not too hard to rattle the backup system.

    I didn't see Cro Cop's fights right before Gonzaga, but fighters don't come back from knockouts like the Gonzaga inflicted upon him

    I doubt dropping to light heavyweight would help. Rampage, Chuck, Tito, Evans, Griffin, Alexander, Jardine - there's a lot of guys who can rattle your cage at that level.

    On a separate note, why doesn't the UFC have top 10 rankings?
    You absolutely have missed Mirko at his very best if you haven't seen him before Gonzaga. If you meant the literal subsequent fights before Gonzaga, that was perhaps Mirko at his best... the Open Weight Grand Prix championship in PRIDE, where he decimated Ikuhisa "The Punk" Minowa, Olympic gold medalist judoka Hidehiko Yoshida, Wanderlei Silva and Josh Barnett to win the tourney in his four 2006 fights, and his first UFC fight in January of this year, he looked pretty good against Eddie Sanchez (albeit he is not nearly at the level of the guys he beat in the PRIDE Grand Prix, or Gonzaga or Kongo for that matter).

    You are correct though that, most of the time, at least, fighters don't come back from knockouts like that, and that's across the board.... boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, whatever. The aforementioned Wanderlei Silva is another recent example of an MMA idol who just hasn't been the same (ironically, it was Cro Cop who delivered that devastating KO to Silva). Guys just have a hard time being the same following that, and it truly does mess up their reflexes.

    I mentioned this in the last post, but I don't think weight cutting has anything to do with this for this reason. But, if Cro Cop WAS at his best, he should absolutely destroy everyone in M2's list of LHWs in the UFC with the exception of Rampage and Liddell. Not to say he wouldn't win those fights, but I don't think it'd be a one-sided brutalization as it would to Griffin, Jardine, etc.

    About the non-existent top-ten rankings... I dunno? Good question. A lot of MMA journalism sites rank them, but UFC doesn't list their own contenders, at least in this day and age of its large popularity surge.
    Last edited by Javy Pornstache; 09-10-2007 at 01:08 AM.

  4. #18
    Habitual Line Stepper halcyon's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Someone mentioned to me that Kongo broke one of Cro Cop's ribs in the first round with those knees of his. This would explain some of his tentativeness, if true. That particular fight was a disappointment to me. Although, I thought McCarthy coulda docked Kongo a point for all of the knees that made contact with Mirko's groin. That woulda made it a draw, albeit a nearly-as-disappointing draw.

  5. #19
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Interesting perspective from the DDN on the Hamill/Bisping decision ...

    http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/con...007inside.html

    Cincinnati native Hamill is snubbed in London event
    By Dann Stupp
    Contributing Writer


    Monday, September 10, 2007

    Quinton Jackson defeated Dan Henderson to become the sport's undisputed 205-pound champ, and the once-invincible Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic was upset by Frenchman Cheick Kongo.

    But the biggest story line coming out of Saturday's UFC 75 event in London, England, is a controversial split-decision win for Michael Bisping over Cincinnati native Matt Hamill.

    How controversial?

    Consider that Kevin Iole of Yahoo! Sports (formerly the longtime Las Vegas Journal-Review combat writer), Mike Chiappetta of NBCSports.com, Sam Caplan of CBSSports.com, Damon Martin of MMAWeekly.com, and John Chandler of MMAonTap.com — some of the elite of the MMA media — and yours truly (after re-watching the fight no fewer than five times) all felt that Hamill won the fight and was robbed of the decision.

    Saturday's light-heavyweight battle went the full three rounds, and under a 10-point-must system, Bisping won it with scores of 29-28, 29-28 and 27-30.

    In other words, two judges (both from the U.S.) thought Bisping won the fight two rounds to one, while the third judge (ironically, from the U.K.) thought the American won all three.

    So why has the outrage turned to cries of conspiracy?

    Hamill looked to have won the first two rounds decidedly, and only the third appeared as though it could go either way. Hamill controlled the pace, scored takedowns, established ring control and, surprisingly, was the better striker.

    Additionally, consider that Bisping, a local product fighting in front of a hometown crowd, was the winner of "The Ultimate Fighter 3," the UFC's popular reality series. He's locked into a long-term contract, and like other winners, plenty of money and resources are invested into building up his young career.

    Although Hamill is an inspirational story — he was born deaf but went on to a decorated amateur wrestling career — the UFC benefits more with a Bisping victory.

    And finally, what the pundits feel is the nail in the coffin: Because England has no athletic commission, the UFC was responsible for regulating the event. UFC Vice President of Regulatory Affairs Marc Ratner was charged with the tasks of drug testing the fighters and choosing officials to judge the fights.

    As the former head of the Nevada State Athletic Commission, Ratner was more than capable of performing the duties, but the conflict of interest isn't going unnoticed.

    So was there really a conspiracy? Was Bisping the predetermined winner?

    It's doubtful.

    The mockery of a decision was probably a case of poor officiating rather than behind-the-scenes shenanigans.

    In a sport still judged primarily by boxing officials, perhaps this latest travesty will encourage UFC and state officials to reconsider the requirements for judging MMA contests.

    It won't make things right for Hamill, but it's a start.

    Dann Stupp is editor-in-chief of MMAjunkie.com, a content-partner site of Yahoo! Sports. Check out www.mmajunkie.com for a full rundown of UFC 75.
    This is what Stupp wrote on his blog at mmajunkie.com on the decision ... he goes into a bit more detail here ...

    Since launching this site nearly a year ago, I’ve witnessed more than a few controversial stories surrounding the UFC. But never have I seen so many people defending the same side of an argument as I did yesterday. MMAjunkie.com commenters and emailers were livid that Michael Bisping was awarded a decision victory over Matt Hamill at UFC 75 — and they want to know why we weren’t doing anything about it.

    I’m no crusader, though. I just try to cover the news. But the outcry over the controversial decision was so loud that I figured I’d give the fight another look.

    When I first watched the fight on Spike TV’s broadcast Saturday night, I had already been tipped off to the outcome (remember: the fight was shown via tape delay, so the results were readily available before the event’s broadcast). If you go back to our UFC 75 live commentary, you’ll see that my initial reaction was that Bisping had won the fight. However, I’ll be the first to admit that my view was probably swayed by knowing the fight’s outcome beforehand, and when “live blogging” a fight, I spend as much time looking at my keyboard as I do the fight.

    So yesterday afternoon, I found UFC 75 in my DVR, muted the sound, and watched the fight at least five times. I didn’t want to be influenced by anything, so I sat there studying the fight in perfect silence. And I was finally convinced: Hamill won the fight. In fact, I scored it 30-28 for Hamill, giving him the first and second rounds, and calling the third round a draw (though I could understand someone giving Bisping the final frame).

    I decided to devote my column in today’s edition of the Dayton Daily News to this topic, and while preparing, I contacted a few other writers about the fight. Kevin Iole of Yahoo! Sports (also a longtime combat writer for the Las Vegas Journal-Review) perhaps put it best: “I thought Hamill set the pace and was the more effective fighter.“

    He’s not the only one. More than 89 percent of voters on a UFC.com poll felt that Hamill won the fight.

    So, for those of you who were upset that I didn’t question the fight’s decision, I suggest that you check out today’s column. (But be prepared: I’m not buying into the notion that there’s a conspiracy at play.)

    You can read the column at DaytonDailyNews.com.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

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  6. #20
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    The crowd and reputation can often swing a fight. Bisping came into the fight highly regarded and the crowd went nuts whenever he did something right. Stuff like that can convince a judge that a fighter is being more effective than he really is. It's one of the reasons why it pays to fight in your hometown, not that the judges are crooked, that the crowd can sway them.

    Along those lines, Silva had better knock out Franklin when they go to Cincinnati. Of course that fight isn't likely to end with a decision in the first place.
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  7. #21
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Anybody catch UFC Fight Night last night? Leben and Quarry both looked like they might have been going down via possible decision in each of their fights, but they both stepped up with a late flurry to grab victories. Florian continues to impress at lightweight, though it's a shame that the fight was pretty much over when Din Thomas injured his knee.

    Anyhow, UFC 76 is this Saturday night. Who ya got? My main card picks ...

    Liddell over Jardine
    Shogun over Griffin
    Sanchez over Fitch (I really want Fitch to win, though)
    Machida over Nakamura
    Tavares over Griffin

    I can see Liddell coming out with something to prove Saturday night, and that'll be unfortunate for Keith Jardine. Chuck matches up poorly with Rampage, as we've seen with two losses, but he's basically dominated just about everyone else he's faced other than Rampage. I'm also very excited to see Shogun Rua finally in the UFC, and I think some people unfamiliar with Rua may be shocked to see him perform. Part of me thinks that not only will Forrest lose to Rua, but he may just get totally destroyed by Rua.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  8. #22
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Florian looked good last night, even with Thomas suffering the injury. He and Spencer Fisher should put on a classic one of these days. Leben's lucky he was in with Terry Martin last night. Middleweight's the best division around these days, IMO, and I expect his wins will become a rarity as he transitions over to professional opponent (kind of like Pete Sell when you get right down to it).

    For UFC 76:

    Chuck over Jardine, though Jardine seems to do well vs. strikers.

    Griffin over Rua, I'll go with the upset here. A lot of the supposed next-big-thing recruits have fallen flat. We'll see how well Rua adapts to the cage and the atmosphere. Also, I think Griffin's got something up his sleeve for this fight.

    Sanchez over Fitch, great matchup, but I figure Diego's in a scary place after his loss to Koscheck.

    Machida over Nakamura, it should be a slaughter

    Tavares over Griffin, why not? someone's got to win
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  9. #23
    Habitual Line Stepper halcyon's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Regarding Fight Night: I agree with most everything you guys said. I enjoyed the Leben fight cuz I was certain he was done. He got lucky dropping that haymaker on a very tired Terry Martin's chin. It was a gutsy effort. I also enjoyed Quarry's fight. He showed a lot of courage.

    For 76:
    Liddell over Jardine - I figure whoever wins this fight is going to do it in an explosive fashion.

    Rua over Griffin - I just can't see Rua losing this fight despite the recent Pride disapointments. Though I like Griffin, I kinda hope that Rua just annihilates him and sets up a future matchup for him to take on Rampage.

    Machida over Nakamura - I gotta disagree with M2 on this one. Nakamura has a number of losses but all of them have been to very quality opponents. I think Machida wins in a decision.

    Fitch over Sanchez - I could go either way on this fight, so since I want Fitch to win I'm going to go with him. I'm in a UFC fantasy league with some friends so I want to root for the guy I want to win in this case.

    Griffin over Tavares - Again, I could go either way here. I have Griffin in this one although it wouldn't surprise me to see Tavares submit him.

  10. #24
    The Latin Heartthrob Javy Pornstache's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    One thing about Jardine is he has, maybe next to only Wilson Gouveia, the nastiest leg kicks in the light heavyweight division. The one thing that gives Jardine a chance is if he gets a chance to work over Liddell's bad wheels with those kicks. I don't even know when the last time Chuck himself threw a kick in a fight was, because his knees are so bad now. On the other hand, throwing leg kicks also opens you up for a counterpuncher, which is how Liddell primarily destroys people when he's on so I'm sure Jardine will be weary of that.

    Again, newer fans to the sport probably won't see Shogun at his best as they've missed with some of the other PRIDE fighters coming over since the consolidation, as I think Shogun with soccer kicks and stomps is the most FEROCIOUS fighter on the planet. Without them, but with elbows legal in UFC, he's still very dangerous. You never know these days with how things turn out, but talent-wise, on paper, he should easily dispatch Forrest Griffin.

    Matt Hughes and Josh Koscheck may get all the notoriety, but there's another top-level wrestler in the welterweight division, and it's Jon Fitch. He certainly has the capability to neutralize Diego Sanchez and control his way to a decision win. Only thing is Fitch had some trouble getting caught in guillotine and anaconda chokes in his last fight against Roan Carneiro while performing takedowns and barely escaped the chokes, and while Carneiro is a higher-level jiujitsu artist than Sanchez, Diego has the big fight experience on Carneiro, strength and I agree that he's gonna be hungry following the loss to Koscheck. Perhaps feeding fuel to his fire is that Fitch is Koscheck's primary training partner at AKA.

    Kazuhiro Nakamura is a top-level judoka under the tutelage of Hidehiko Yoshida. He's a top ten light heavyweight in the world, and still pretty underrated despite that, as he was always lost in the PRIDE 205 class amongst Wanderlei Silva, Shogun, Rampage, Ricardo Arona, Rogerio "Lil' Nog" Nogueira, Alistair Overeem, etc. This has decision written all over it, as Lyoto Machida has an uncanny ability to completely pick someone apart on the feet, but not quite finish them, while Nakamura has a great takedown and position-control game. I'll take Machida by decision.

    Tyson Griffin-Thiago Tavares is a phenomenal fight on paper. This could be Tyson's third straight fight of the year candidate in 2007 (joining his split decision loss to Frankie Edgar and split decision win over Clay Guida). I really, really, really like this fight, and the pay-per-view price will be worth it to me for this one. Tavares is the real deal, pretty much "Little Vitor" down to physical resemblence in addition to the fighting style. I am having a tough time picking this, but I'll take Griffin on a hunch by superior conditioning and control due to his top-notch wrestling to give Tavares his first career loss.

    On the undercard, I'll take:
    Scott Junk by KO over Christian Wellisch
    Jeremy Stephens by KO over Diego Saraiva
    Matt Wiman by TKO over Michihiro Omigawa
    Rich Clementi by sub over Anthony Johnson

  11. #25
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Talk about upsets. Jardine, Griffin and Fitch all won. I'm starting to think the U in UFC stands for Underdog.
    Last edited by M2; 09-26-2007 at 03:46 PM.
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  12. #26
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    This is old news, but how did you guys pick Cro over Kongo? Granted I hadn't watched much of him before, but Kongo is HUGE. I called it as soon as I saw how big he was.

  13. #27
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    My friend that I went to the Seahawks game with is a HUGE UFC fan. I can't believe that Lidell guy was/is ever considered good. He had terrible defense skills and a wild attack. He looked like a tough man contest fighter.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

  14. #28
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    My friend that I went to the Seahawks game with is a HUGE UFC fan. I can't believe that Lidell guy was/is ever considered good. He had terrible defense skills and a wild attack. He looked like a tough man contest fighter.
    It was an effective wild attack. It would never work in a zillion years in boxing, but this isn't boxing. In MMA, a puncher has to lunge a bit because otherwise he'll find himself in a wrestling match. What Liddell does is throw a quick haymaker and keeps his balance well enough while doing it to maintain his takedown defense. He put a lot of guys to sleep. It looks like his mobility is fading and it doesn't help that Jardine can kicks your legs crooked.

    Though what we might be seeing is the rapid progression of the sport. Arlov, Liddell, Franklin and Hughes were held up as supermen not long ago, four unbeatables holding belts in their respective divisions. Now all four have looked a lot more mortal as new fighters seemingly up the stakes with every event. The Pride guys enjoyed a lot of pub, but most haven't been able to match the level of competition in the UFC.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  15. #29
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    You really have to consider age too. MMA fighters really can't continue to fight as well into their mid-late 30s.

  16. #30
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    Re: UFC Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TeamSelig View Post
    You really have to consider age too. MMA fighters really can't continue to fight as well into their mid-late 30s.
    With one notable exception.



    Mr. Couture seems to be getting better as he ages.
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