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Thread: Frank Robinson underrated?

  1. #1
    Haunted by walks
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    Frank Robinson underrated?

    It's hard to be an underrated Hall-of-Famer, but I wonder. We of course know all about him, and everybody knows him as an African-American manager, and maybe as a star with Baltimore, but you don't hear people talk about Aaron, Ruth and Robinson, or even Mays, Mantle and Robinson.

    It's good that Griffey's path has pointed the spotlight on Frank Robinson again as one of the very greats of the game.

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    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Frank Robinson (IMHO) was one of the top five players Ive ever seen in person. Here is a list of my favorites I've seen play in person.

    Willy Mays, Frank Robinson, Hank Aarron, Johnny Bench, and Roberto Clemente.

    Pitchers- Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Ferguson Jenkins, Steve Carlton, and Jim Maloney. (I've never seen Anyone throw as hard as Maloney and yes that includes Nolan Ryan.)

    I know very few others will agree with my list. That's all well and good.

    I've been blessed enough to watch many of the best players to ever play the game.

    It's hard to leave guys like Rose, Griffey Jr., Bonds and Nolan Ryan off any list of top five but there it is.

    Who makes your list?
    Last edited by Ron Madden; 07-07-2007 at 03:11 AM.

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    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    I was scared this was going to be a thread to lobby for Robinson being the next Reds manager.

    Anyway, Frank Robinson's playing days were before my time, but when I look at his accomplishments and compare them to how often he's talked about, the ratio doesn't make sense to me, and I don't understand why. Maybe it's because he's not dead yet?

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Frank Robinson is one of the most underrated Hall of Famers ever IMO. This is a guy who was the MVP in each league, won a triple crown, hit 586 career HRs--and he doesn't make the All Century Team.
    He not only does not make the team; the controversy surrounding the team is then the snit thrown by the family of Roberto Clemente when the Commissioner adds Stan Musial to the team rather than Clemente.
    Musial deserved to be on the team, and if anything Stan the Man is even more underrated today than is Robby. However, the Clemente family had no good beef about the omission of Roberto if Frank Robinson was left off the team, because Frank Robinson was clearly a greater player than Roberto Clemente--not a greater fielder, but a greater player.
    Other than perhaps Pete Rose and Bob Gibson, Frank Robinson is perhaps the greatest, most fierce, competitor that I ever have ever watched play major league baseball.
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    I agree he is underrated and it is a shame. I wonder if he is underrated because he never went away from the game?

    As soon as his playing days were done he was in the dugout managing.
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    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Robby played in Cincinnati, and in the shadows of fellow stars Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle and Hank Aaron. He never was put on the same tier as those players. Even Duke Snider, playing in Brooklyn, probably got more ink than Robinson in those days.

    Robinson was a great player who never got the accolades that he deserved. In the same regard, Vada Pinson suffered in the shadows of Frank Robinson. I think he is one of the great players of his era, as well. Pinson did a lot of things very well.
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Underrated, absolutely.

    it wasn't until he was with the O's, won the Triple Crown and was on those great Baltimore teams of the late 60's that he finally received some of the accolades he deserved.

    Randy, great point re: Vada Pinson also.

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    I'll never understand why he never received the accolades he deserves.

    He was a perfect package of talent and mental discipline.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Absolutely underrated. He's on my top five list of players to follow for a year when time travel becomes feasible. I'm thinking 1966 would be a good year.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Member LINEDRIVER's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    Frank Robinson (IMHO) was one of the top five players Ive ever seen in person. Here is a list of my favorites I've seen play in person.

    Willy Mays, Frank Robinson, Hank Aarron, Johnny Bench, and Roberto Clemente.

    Pitchers- Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Ferguson Jenkins, Steve Carlton, and Jim Maloney. (I've never seen Anyone throw as hard as Maloney and yes that includes Nolan Ryan.)

    I know very few others will agree with my list. That's all well and good.

    I've been blessed enough to watch many of the best players to ever play the game.

    It's hard to leave guys like Rose, Griffey Jr., Bonds and Nolan Ryan off any list of top five but there it is.

    Who makes your list?
    We are pretty close. I'd exchange Rose for Bench and would put Juan Marichal in the place of Fergie Jenkins. Sorry Johnny, you still make my Top Ten, just not the Top 5. Rose gave me more chills and thrillls than anybody else so he's gotta be there.

    I also consider myself thankful to have seen so many great ballplayers like.....
    Lou Brock, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Joe Morgan, Sandy Koufax, Jim Bunning, Mike Schmidt and George Foster.

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    Member LINEDRIVER's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    FRANK ROBINSON Underrated? Really? Because folks talk about Aaron, Mays, Clemente before Robby's name comes up?

    I saw him play and he was a great ballplayer. He was a great player, a great competitor, a great teammate, and a definite Hall of Famer. However, it never occurred to me that he was underrated. I would consider him 'fairly rated'.

    Robinson was and always will be judged against the likes of Aaron, Mays, Clemente. It's hard to compete with Aaron, Mays and Clemente for some of that top billing.

    Aaron 3771 Hits/755 HRs, 3 Gold Gloves, led his league in HR's 4 times, led his league in RBI's 4 times, 2 Batting Titles, 40 or more HR's in a season 8 times.

    Mays 3283 Hits/660 HRs/12 Gold Gloves/led his league in HR's 4 times, first player to reach the 300/300 club (300 steals/300 HR's), set a standard for speedy and intelligent baserunning, his friendly and smiling "Say Hey Kid' personality and major defensive and offensive production made him a major gate and media attraction.

    Clemente 3000 Hits/12 Gold Gloves, 4 Batting Titles, Hit .328 from 1960-1969, hit .350 or over 3 times, hit .335 over his last 3 seasons at the ages of 35-37, hit under .300 only once in his last 13 yrs. of his 18 yr career. Set the standard for throwing arms from RF.

    Robinson played 21 seasons and led his league in HR's one time, RBI's one time, and BA one time. He did all that in his Triple Crown season of 1966.
    2943 Hits/586 HR's, one Gold Glove (1958), one 40 HR or more season.

    Robby played in more games at 1B in 1959-60 than he did in the outfield. Wasn't he arrested in about 1962 for packing heat? Perhaps things like that helped to diminish his value against those top three though he was still a great five-tool player.
    Last edited by LINEDRIVER; 07-07-2007 at 01:06 PM.

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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Code:
    YEAR TEAM          	G    	AB     R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
    totals          	2808 	10006 1829 2943 528  72 586   5.86 1812 1420 1532  204  77  .294  .537  .389  .926 
         Lg Average         	9552  1199 2480 384  74 249   2.60 1120  926 1399  131  80  .260  .393  .327  .720 
         Pos Average           	9695  1314 2603 412  80 332   3.42 1340  979 1491  127  76  .268  .430  .338  .768

  14. #13
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by LINEDRIVER View Post
    We are pretty close. I'd exchange Rose for Bench and would put Juan Marichal in the place of Fergie Jenkins. Sorry Johnny, you still make my Top Ten, just not the Top 5. Rose gave me more chills and thrillls than anybody else so he's gotta be there.

    I also consider myself thankful to have seen so many great ballplayers like.....
    Lou Brock, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Joe Morgan, Sandy Koufax, Jim Bunning, Mike Schmidt and George Foster.
    I had a very hard time choosing between Rose and Bench. I did with Jenkins and Marichal as well.

    We have seen some of the best talent of to ever play the game.


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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by LINEDRIVER View Post
    FRANK ROBINSON Underrated? Really? Because folks talk about Aaron, Mays, Clemente before Robby's name comes up?

    I saw him play and he was a great ballplayer. He was a great player, a great competitor, a great teammate, and a definite Hall of Famer. However, it never occurred to me that he was underrated. I would consider him 'fairly rated'.

    Robinson was and always will be judged against the likes of Aaron, Mays, Clemente. It's hard to compete with Aaron, Mays and Clemente for some of that top billing.

    Aaron 3771 Hits/755 HRs, 3 Gold Gloves, led his league in HR's 4 times, led his league in RBI's 4 times, 2 Batting Titles, 40 or more HR's in a season 8 times.

    Mays 3283 Hits/660 HRs/12 Gold Gloves/led his league in HR's 4 times, first player to reach the 300/300 club (300 steals/300 HR's), set a standard for speedy and intelligent baserunning, his friendly and smiling "Say Hey Kid' personality and major defensive and offensive production made him a major gate and media attraction.

    Clemente 3000 Hits/12 Gold Gloves, 4 Batting Titles, Hit .328 from 1960-1969, hit .350 or over 3 times, hit .335 over his last 3 seasons at the ages of 35-37, hit under .300 only once in his last 13 yrs. of his 18 yr career. Set the standard for throwing arms from RF.

    Robinson played 21 seasons and led his league in HR's one time, RBI's one time, and BA one time. He did all that in his Triple Crown season of 1966.
    2943 Hits/586 HR's, one Gold Glove (1958), one 40 HR or more season.

    Robby played in more games at 1B in 1959-60 than he did in the outfield. Wasn't he arrested in about 1962 for packing heat? Perhaps things like that helped to diminish his value against those top three though he was still a great five-tool player.
    Thank you for making the point that Frank Robinson is still underrated by many.
    Compared to Willie Mays and Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson was just a notch below those. But compared to Clemente?
    Roberto Clemente was a greater hitter than Frank Robinson only if you still worship batting average and ignore all research of, oh, the last half century or so as to more accurate measures of offensive production.
    Clemente leads Robinson in career batting average by a large amount, .317 to .294, barely in hits, 3000-2943, and in triples, 166-72. That's it.
    Robinson leads in doubles, 528-440.
    Robinson leads in walks, 1420-1230.
    Robinson leads in stolen bases, 204-83.
    Robinson has more than twice as many home runs, 586-240.
    Yes, Clemente had the higher batting average, but Robinson leads in on base percentage, .389-.359.
    Robinson leads in slugging percentage, .537-.475.
    It therefore should come as no surprise that Robinson scored more runs, 1829-1416, and had more runs batted in, 1812-1305.
    Each player made 12 all star teams.
    As I previously posted, Clemente was the better fielder, as is reflected in the 12 Gold Gloves he won to Robinson's one.
    Robinson leads in MVP awards, 2-1.
    Yes, Clemente won four batting titles, but leading the league in batting average is about the only thing Clemente ever did lead the league in. He also lead in hits twice and in intentional walks once.
    Robinson lead the league in hitting once, in on base percentage twice, in slugging percentage four times, in OPS four times, in runs scored three times, in total bases once, in doubles once, in home runs once, in runs batted in once, in runs created twice, in extra base hits twice, in times on base twice, and in intentional walks four times.
    In "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract," James ranked Robinson as the third greatest rightfielder of all time, behind only Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, while ranking Clemente 8th. Robinson had 519 Win Shares for his career, with his top three Win Share seasons being 41, 38 and 38, with his top five totalling 164, and with an average of 31.58 Win Shares per 162 games. Clemente had 377 career Win Shares, with top seasons of 35, 30 and 29, a top five total of 146, and an average of 25.10 Win Shares per 162 games.
    As for Robinson being arrested for "packing heat," not only is that comment a cheap shot, the arrest hardly diminshed his value. Robinson was arrested on a concealed weapons charge in 1961, not 1962, the arrest coming on Feb. 8, 1961. It is rather hard to make the case that the arrest somehow should diminish Robinson's value, as he proceeded to win the NL MVP and lead the Reds to the 1961 NL pennant.
    The three best outfielders in baseball in the 1960s were Mays, Aaron and Frank Robinson.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  16. #15
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Frank Robinson underrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Thank you for making the point that Frank Robinson is still underrated by many.
    Compared to Willie Mays and Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson was just a notch below those. But compared to Clemente?
    Roberto Clemente was a greater hitter than Frank Robinson only if you still worship batting average and ignore all research of, oh, the last half century or so as to more accurate measures of offensive production.
    Clemente leads Robinson in career batting average by a large amount, .317 to .294, barely in hits, 3000-2943, and in triples, 166-72. That's it.
    Robinson leads in doubles, 528-440.
    Robinson leads in walks, 1420-1230.
    Robinson leads in stolen bases, 204-83.
    Robinson has more than twice as many home runs, 586-240.
    Yes, Clemente had the higher batting average, but Robinson leads in on base percentage, .389-.359.
    Robinson leads in slugging percentage, .537-.475.
    It therefore should come as no surprise that Robinson scored more runs, 1829-1416, and had more runs batted in, 1812-1305.
    Each player made 12 all star teams.
    As I previously posted, Clemente was the better fielder, as is reflected in the 12 Gold Gloves he won to Robinson's one.
    Robinson leads in MVP awards, 2-1.
    Yes, Clemente won four batting titles, but leading the league in batting average is about the only thing Clemente ever did lead the league in. He also lead in hits twice and in intentional walks once.
    Robinson lead the league in hitting once, in on base percentage twice, in slugging percentage four times, in OPS four times, in runs scored three times, in total bases once, in doubles once, in home runs once, in runs batted in once, in runs created twice, in extra base hits twice, in times on base twice, and in intentional walks four times.
    In "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract," James ranked Robinson as the third greatest rightfielder of all time, behind only Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, while ranking Clemente 8th. Robinson had 519 Win Shares for his career, with his top three Win Share seasons being 41, 38 and 38, with his top five totalling 164, and with an average of 31.58 Win Shares per 162 games. Clemente had 377 career Win Shares, with top seasons of 35, 30 and 29, a top five total of 146, and an average of 25.10 Win Shares per 162 games.
    As for Robinson being arrested for "packing heat," not only is that comment a cheap shot, the arrest hardly diminshed his value. Robinson was arrested on a concealed weapons charge in 1961, not 1962, the arrest coming on Feb. 8, 1961. It is rather hard to make the case that the arrest somehow should diminish Robinson's value, as he proceeded to win the NL MVP and lead the Reds to the 1961 NL pennant.
    The three best outfielders in baseball in the 1960s were Mays, Aaron and Frank Robinson.
    Thanks for pointing that out!
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden


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