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Thread: Biggest Issue on RZ!

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Biggest Issue on RZ!

    It seems the biggest issue that gets in the way of fans on the Redszone having some degree of harmony is a philosophical difference in opinion about an offensive players approach (not just our offensive players) at the plate. Not making an out is king on one hand, and on the other hand putting the ball in play seems to be paramount.

    Not that there is anything wrong with having a difference of opinion, but a high degree of animosity stems from this difference. My stance is everything in the organization seems to stem from that singular thing, a philosophical view of an offensive approach.

    Who the Owner should hire for GM, who the GM should hire for field manager, who the COO hires to broadcast games, what players to keep, who to get rid of, who should be acquired, what any one players worth is (ours, theirs), who should play, where they should play, where they should bat in the lineup and so on can all be traced back to philosophy.

    Your philosophy, my philosophy, the media's philosophy even get's some play. It's fair to debate these things as fans IMO so don't get me wrong I'm not saying that any of the philosophy's are wrong persay. Because IMO most all of the opinions that are usually tossed about have had some degree of success just about anywhere you look.

    Problem is IMO that there is perhaps a lack of communication, either you don't get me and vice-versa and/or people simply are not taking the time to read and completely understand the intended conclusion. I guess I could be wrong and that most everyone completely understands the opposing point of view and just disagrees. I do think there is plenty of the former, but it's probably mainly the latter.


    So I guess I wanna know if it's the former (just not getting the opposition's view) then what is it you are having trouble with figuring out?

    If the latter is the case then why? Why is it that people value their opinion so much that there is no room for the other, why is that opposing philosphy wrong?

    Or do I have it wrong? Is this even the correct argument, i'm not sure. Perhaps that's why am struggling with the different viewpoint.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 07-13-2007 at 05:05 PM.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    I think one major issue is that there is a difference in baseball intelligence between the members here. Some people have a vast knowledge of the game, and others have their own opinions. For instance, I'm under the opinion that Marty is a moron when it comes to running a franchise or player evaluation. Others, who may not have the same type of experience that I do, might take Marty for his word and believe in him as a talent evaluater, after all, he has been around the game a long time. I was once in that crew, thankfully I have sought out answers and now I believe in what I believe, not others.

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    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    I don't know the answer to the problem, but it might have something to do with the venue. This is a computer site and that partly explains some of the beliefs that we find prevalent here. I have a large number of friends who have spent their whole lives at ballparks playing, coaching, and analyzing baseball. They don't have the inclination to sit at a computer, and they don't share many of the beliefs that are embraced by many here. I see merit in both sides so I check my location, computer or ballpark, and try to avoid the wrath that I might invoke from either side.
    Last edited by Spitball; 07-13-2007 at 05:35 PM.
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    Member CrackerJack's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    I've learned a lot about baseball here over the years. Thank you.

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    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    It took a while for THIS old dog to wake up to the new tricks (stats) that are available today.....now.....I still could give a flying leap about them, but I do now understand that LOTS of very smart people DO care about them.

    Many of those VERY smart people I am talking about are RZ members.

    I have been rather encouraged recently that those very smart people no longer seem to want to bludgeon me to death with the new tricks every time I express an opinion.

    Some of that, I hope, is from them realizing that some of us just want to watch the game.....and have been doing so for decades.

    A do agree with the point that this being a computer forum does lean it in a certain.....shall I say.....computational direction......so lots of sorted data comes very naturally to many RZ members.

    Anyway, I still use and care about RZ because I learn a great deal from those with more gravitas than I. Also, I have learned to stay away from expressing my opinion in such a way as it sounds like I believe it is a fact engraved in concrete.

    What is still alluring about baseball is that you can be a real expert and still not know much......and as they say.....that is why they play the games.
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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    The only side on this site is with the REDS. (Go REDS!)
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    Like politics and religion, I think the only solution is to ban all baseball talk and move it to the Peanut Gallery.

    Fans have been arguing baseball since Abner Doubleday threw out the first Opening Day pitch. If everyone agreed on here then it would be one boring forum.
    Last edited by GAC; 07-13-2007 at 06:06 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Go Reds Go! UKFlounder's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    If everyone agreed on here then it would be one boring forum.
    I disagree

    See that was fun

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvesIce51 View Post
    I think one major issue is that there is a difference in baseball intelligence between the members here. Some people have a vast knowledge of the game, and others have their own opinions. For instance, I'm under the opinion that Marty is a moron when it comes to running a franchise or player evaluation. Others, who may not have the same type of experience that I do, might take Marty for his word and believe in him as a talent evaluater, after all, he has been around the game a long time. I was once in that crew, thankfully I have sought out answers and now I believe in what I believe, not others.
    So you are saying that those who disagree with you simply are unintelligent. Ok fair enough people sometimes lack intelligence, anyone who has listened to the Banana phone can agree with that. But I just don't see too many who's remarks resemble those found regularly on the banana phone. Maybe I don't see it because I am perceived here as one of those people, it could be I suppose I mean perception is reality often.

    So if I have it right Marty doesn't understand how to evaluate a player or run a franchise and you disagree with his views on the subject. I can only assume what you mean by that since you didn't expound on it. I'll say this Marty may be fairly negative at times (who wouldn't given his job) but I have heard him say few things that I disagree with so I must also be a moron. I find that unbelievable that you would call all those who have a more traditional view a moron. Especially since you readily admit to having agreed with him on baseball in the past.

    And I think that's the whole meat of the discussion, it's why there is animosity on this site. Because people actually believe that so many here blindly follow anything other than what's been taught to them by Baseball people all their lives. Marty has hardly ever said anything that I didn't already know myself, so you cannot accuse me of following what he or McCoy or anyone else for that matter says. I have learned a lot from watching the game, playing the game and being taught by those who have won the game.

    But I am not here to argue, but rather to discuss. So hopefully that comment wasn't actually directed at me or anyone else who has a traditional view other than Marty and the way he presents his views.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 07-13-2007 at 06:26 PM.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball View Post
    I don't know the answer to the problem, but it might have something to do with the venue. This is a computer site and that partly explains some of the beliefs that we find prevalent here. I have a large number of friends who have spent their whole lives at ballparks playing, coaching, and analyzing baseball. They don't have the inclination to sit at a computer, and they don't share many of the beliefs that are embraced by many here. I see merit in both sides so I check my location, computer or ballpark, and try to avoid the wrath that I might invoke from either side.
    No I get that I do. I just wonder why there is such a huge divide and why there is so little "getting to the bottom of it" so to speak. And why must people be so daggone mean about it.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvesIce51 View Post
    I think one major issue is that there is a difference in baseball intelligence between the members here. Some people have a vast knowledge of the game
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    So you are saying that those who disagree with you simply are unintelligent.
    There is a huge difference between knowledge and intelligence. Intelligence involves the application of knowledge.

    The sticking point, on here anyway, is "define" knowledge, in reference to the subject matter? If one isn't a "disciple" of Baseball Abstract and Money Ball, does that make one Forrest Gump?
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    There is a huge difference between knowledge and intelligence. Intelligence involves the application of knowledge.

    I think one major issue is that there is a difference in baseball intelligence between the members here
    This is where I took that he meant someone is unintelligent.

    The sticking point, on here anyway, is "define" knowledge, in reference to the subject matter? If one isn't a "disciple" of Baseball Abstract and Money Ball, does that make one Forrest Gump?[/
    That's a good question, why would someone make that connection?
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    To me most of the arguments are not a disputing of facts, or knowledge, but rather the basis for said knowledge.

    That is, one crowd wants evidence and empirical, often numerical, support for any assertion, whereas another group is more comfortable with more qualitative, experiential knowledge. I, obviously, fall in to the former.

    It becomes an argument not of the topic itself, but of the basis of the knowledge in which a given claim is rooted. It's almost like a male/female thing, or ships passing in the night sort of thing. We end up talking right past each other, convinced the other is simply arrogant, stubborn, or just stupid.

    People don't mind being proven wrong when the context for the discussion is established. If I say 2+2=5 and you show me how it actually equals 4, I might be embarrased, but I'll accept it. But if you tell me that 2+2=A and that "+" doesn't mean what I grew up believing it meant, then I have a big problem. Either one of us has to accept the other's definition of "+" or we have to agree to disagree on the answer.

    Unfortunately, when the method by which people claim knowledge is called in to question, either explicitly or implicitly, people take it as a direct attack on them. It's precisely why Moneyball caused such a stir. It's not that "old school" guys don't value OBP. It's that they were being told, implicitly, that they no longer possessed the expertise which they claimed.

    It requires a great deal of care to not only present your facts but also present the basis for your facts in a way that does not offend the other parties. There are a handful of people who seem unwilling to consider alternate ways of analysis, in both directions. It's understandable given human nature, but extremely frustrating for everyone.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 07-13-2007 at 07:00 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    To me most of the arguments are not a disputing of facts, or knowledge, but rather the basis for said knowledge.

    That is, one crows wants evidence and empirical, often numerical support for any assertion whereas another group is more comfortable with more qualitative, experiential based knowledge.

    It becomes an argument not of the topic itself, but of the basis of the knowledge in which a given claim is rooted. It's almost like a male/female, ships passing in the night sort of thing.

    People don't mind being proven wrong when the context for the discussion is established. However, when the method by which people claim knowledge is called in to question, either explicitly or implicitly, people take it as a direct attack on them. It requires a great deal of care to not only present your facts but also present the basis for your facts in a way that does not offend other parties.

    There are a handful of people who seem unwilling to consider alternate ways of analysis, in both directions. It's understandable given human nature, but extremely frustrating for everyone.
    Well said, I certainly can see that. I for one do try to consider the opposing view and if you can shed the light on me i'll run with it. But for whatever reason that is not typically the case.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

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    Re: Biggest Issue on RZ!

    To me it more of people trying to win the argument or trying to get the last word in. Some times it is informative when posters are trying to convince each other their philosophy is the right one but some of the times it ends up being heated and becomes a negative post. It is ok to agree that you disagree and move on. The nice thing about baseball is every walk of life can have an opinion on it. It may range from that Manager sucks, to someone completely breaking the stats to prove repeatability, or scout type of approach in saying the kid has that special sound when he hits the ball or his fastball hits 91 with very good late sinking action and a smooth delivery. Some times people are just lost for words and they really can't quantify what they want to say and their emotions take over but they have to get it out. But enough with changing everything around here when on group or the other thinks something is wrong with the site because each others opinions.


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