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Thread: Mackanin should be fired already

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  1. #1
    Member Phhhl's Avatar
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    Mackanin should be fired already

    Forget whether or not this organization is committed to Edwin Encarnacion. By benching him two out of the first three games out of the all star break, the Reds have effectively sent any trade value he had garnered with a strong recent performance to the recycle bin. Nobody is going to ante up to his true value in a deal when the Reds are broadcasting to the world so clearly that they have lost faith in him. Not to mention, he is one of the top 2-3 most valuable players in the organization right now and should be getting ab's every day in the middle of the order without even a passing thought about trading him in the first place. I am just pointing out that there doesn't seem to be a defensable argument to benching him no matter what the pov is about his future.

    The guy has hit since his demotion and has played good defense. A few more homers would be nice, but come on. I certainly understand driving up Freel's value. But with Hamilton out there is absolutely no excuse for not stationing Freel (and Farney) in the leadoff spot as the Reds center fielder and leaving the third base situation alone. If one of these gm's who reportedly love his "hustle" decide to overpay for a utility man with suicidal tendancies, let's indulge him.

    I am dumbfounded at how the Reds manage to stumble their way into situations that hurt themselves with every move. Does the human element in baseball really create these factions between wisdom and prudence? Does Edwin eat lunch in his car and refuse to associate with his teammates, or something? Using Reganomics, the trickle down theory still fails when you substitute sunk cost like Norris Hopper for an asset like Encarnacion.

    Ownership should be on top of this and intervening if the new substitute teacher is having so much trouble with his times tables. The Reds are desperately in need of the new math, and a professor who knows how to teach it.
    Last edited by Phhhl; 07-15-2007 at 03:20 AM.

  2. #2
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    The dislike for EE(as a player) and the manlove for the likes of Freel and Hopper really defies description. Not playing EE yesterday was stupidity of the ighest order.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  3. #3
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    The dislike for EE(as a player) and the manlove for the likes of Freel and Hopper really defies description. Not playing EE yesterday was stupidity of the ighest order.
    Why would you qualify his not playing these two games as dislike? Isn't that being unfair toward Mackanin?

    I don't advocate playing the likes of Freel at 3B over EE. But I don't know if not playing 2 of the first 3 games coming out of the AS break as a benching. Not sure that qualifies as such. It certainly doesn't justify calling for a firing. Especially when the manager's win-loss record is 6-3, and he's been given orders to experiment.

    EE's defense has improved; but I am somewhat disappointed in his offensive production to date. He has been somewhat of an enigma to me.
    Last edited by GAC; 07-15-2007 at 06:46 AM.
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  4. #4
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    EE has disappointed me with his bat this season. However, his defense has been rock solid (one error since coming back from AAA).

    Even with his unexpectedly poor performance this year, he is a better offensive alternative than Freel OR Hopper BY A LONG SHOT.

    He is also a better DEFENSIVE option at 3B than Freel.

    To top it off, his SB in the 9th inning on Thursday was his fifht this season. He has not been caught stealing. So, he can't bunt, but he CAN run.

    It makes no sense to play regularly play Freel or Hopper over EE. Mac is as clueless as Narron was if he can't see that.
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    EE has disappointed me with his bat this season. However, his defense has been rock solid (one error since coming back from AAA).

    Even with his unexpectedly poor performance this year, he is a better offensive alternative than Freel OR Hopper BY A LONG SHOT.

    He is also a better DEFENSIVE option at 3B than Freel.

    To top it off, his SB in the 9th inning on Thursday was his fifht this season. He has not been caught stealing. So, he can't bunt, but he CAN run.

    It makes no sense to play regularly play Freel or Hopper over EE. Mac is as clueless as Narron was if he can't see that.

    Maybe the other night when he came in and let that pop fly drop. He might be a player that needs a wake up call every month or so. Who knows, but I would expect to see him back in there, but you aren't going to fire a manager who has won his 1st two series and just lost 3-2 and 2-1 and beat the mets at home. I kind of like his attitude, but it's still early.
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  6. #6
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    I wonder how long it will take for whatever "Superstar Manager" TM the Reds hire before the dogs start nipping at his feet too. You folks are a tough crowd when it comes to the long, long season baseball is.

  7. #7
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    I wonder how long it will take for whatever "Superstar Manager" TM the Reds hire before the dogs start nipping at his feet too. You folks are a tough crowd when it comes to the long, long season baseball is.
    You got that right!

    Maybe they are simply trying to get Freel some playing time/ABs because he has been off so long? And since EE has come out of the gate in July pretty bad, 3B is the place to do that with Freel, and not risk him getting another concussion in CF? Possible?
    Last edited by GAC; 07-15-2007 at 08:54 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  8. #8
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    I wonder how long it will take for whatever "Superstar Manager" TM the Reds hire before the dogs start nipping at his feet too. You folks are a tough crowd when it comes to the long, long season baseball is.
    LOL- that will happen immediately after he is hired, and the dissection of his past managerial duties occurs.

    Pete Mack was hired, ostensibly as an interim, because he and Kriv share basic philosophies. Jerry Narron was extended last year for the same reason.

    The philosophy that values Freel over EE at 3B, and Hopper more in the OF comes from above the manager. Of course Krivsky doesn't tell the manager who to play from day to day. But he does give him the players.

    OTOH, I agree that Freel may be being showcased right now. I can't see how anyone would think that Freel is either a better hitter or a better fielder than EE.

    The only thing Freel offers is the ability to hit leadoff (and I don't think he's a very good lead-off hitter, to be honest. He's not a very good hitter, and when was the last time you saw him try to use his speed to get on base via a drag bunt?).

    The sooner Kriv realizes that he needs to build his team around his good players (BP, EE, Dunn, Griffey, Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, and the young relievers - I'm not giving up on them yet), and trade the rest, yes, even for relief pitching, the faster this team will get better.

    Probably the two most likely guys to be traded now are Dunn and Hatte. I don't think you can get value back for Dunn, so I'd keep him. Hatte can be flipped for some decent RP and I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    If Dunn is traded for RP, I may just boycott the rest of the season, however. And that would make me very sad.

  9. #9
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    LOL- that will happen immediately after he is hired, and the dissection of his past managerial duties occurs.

    Pete Mack was hired, ostensibly as an interim, because he and Kriv share basic philosophies. Jerry Narron was extended last year for the same reason.

    The sooner Kriv realizes that he needs to build his team around his good players (BP, EE, Dunn, Griffey, Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, and the young relievers - I'm not giving up on them yet), and trade the rest, yes, even for relief pitching, the faster this team will get better.

    Probably the two most likely guys to be traded now are Dunn and Hatte. I don't think you can get value back for Dunn, so I'd keep him. Hatte can be flipped for some decent RP and I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    If Dunn is traded for RP, I may just boycott the rest of the season, however. And that would make me very sad.
    There's a need for objectivity. Somebody posted that EE is one of the 2-3 most valuable players in the organization. This post says he is one of the 6 or 7 "good players." Let's look at the reality. He is young and talented, but hasn't hit much in a full year. He is one of the few righty hitters the Reds have yet is hitting .226 with one homer against lefties. (No shock he didn't play against Tom Glavine.) Yes, his defense has improved but he isn't Scott Rolen out there.

    Last year people were comparing EE to David Wright. I don't think that comparison would go very far right now.

    I don't mind the debates about Dunn. With all he's accomplished it is certainly fair game to say the Reds should keep him, despite the view of many that they shouldn't. But let's be objective about some of the other guys who folks here would label untouchable, or future stars.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-15-2007 at 11:25 AM.

  10. #10
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    There's a need for objectivity. Somebody posted that EE is one of the 2-3 most valuable players in the organization. This post says he is one of the 6 or 7 "good players." Let's look at the reality. He is young and talented, but hasn't hit much in a full year. He is one of the few righty hitters the Reds have yet is hitting .226 with one homer against lefties. (No shock he didn't play against Tom Glavine.) Yes, his defense has improved but he isn't Scott Rolen out there.

    Last year people were comparing EE to David Wright. I don't think that comparison would go very far right now.

    I don't mind the debates about Dunn. With all he's accomplished it is certainly fair game to say the Reds should keep him, despite the view of many that they shouldn't. But let's be objective about some of the other guys who folks here would label untouchable, or future stars.
    EE basically projects as a league average third baseman. That has value during his control years. Untouchable is probably hyperbole but who do the Reds replace him with?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #11
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    There's a need for objectivity. Somebody posted that EE is one of the 2-3 most valuable players in the organization. This post says he is one of the 6 or 7 "good players." Let's look at the reality. He is young and talented, but hasn't hit much in a full year. He is one of the few righty hitters the Reds have yet is hitting .226 with one homer against lefties. (No shock he didn't play against Tom Glavine.) Yes, his defense has improved but he isn't Scott Rolen out there.

    Last year people were comparing EE to David Wright. I don't think that comparison would go very far right now.

    I don't mind the debates about Dunn. With all he's accomplished it is certainly fair game to say the Reds should keep him, despite the view of many that they shouldn't. But let's be objective about some of the other guys who folks here would label untouchable, or future stars.
    No question that he's no David Wright.

    I'm not a huge EE fan by any means. I was all for benching him when JN did so, and for him spending some time in AAA.

    But his defense has improved, a lot. His attitude, which I questioned, seems to be fine, and his time in AAA toughened him up.

    His bat has been just OK this year; a disappointment as compared to last year. He's young, he's got a lot of talent, and who else in this org is going to play 3B?

    If you can deal him for value and get a comparable 3B back (from someone, anyone) to replace him then that's fine, too.

    I didn't claim he was "untouchable." I suggested he was a player to build around, not to deal. I think that's pretty objective; but that's just MHO.

  12. #12
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    I think Freel is being showcased for a trade with the deadline approaching. I think the Reds are trying to establish that he has more uses than as a marginal lead-off CF or a pretty good 4th OF. I think by giving him time in the IF that they are trying to say to the world that he still is useable as a supersub and frankly he has a lot more value to a contender as a supersub than as anything else.

    At least I hope that is what is going on.
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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think Freel is being showcased for a trade with the deadline approaching. I think the Reds are trying to establish that he has more uses than as a marginal lead-off CF or a pretty good 4th OF. I think by giving him time in the IF that they are trying to say to the world that he still is useable as a supersub and frankly he has a lot more value to a contender as a supersub than as anything else.

    At least I hope that is what is going on.
    exactly-we're going to see alot of strange things the next couple of weeks.
    Last edited by jojo; 07-15-2007 at 08:56 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #14
    Member smith288's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Its not secret to the world o fbaseball what Freel is. I dont think the Reds are going to fool anyone into thinking he is something different regardless where he plays.

  15. #15
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Mackanin should be fired already

    Quote Originally Posted by smith288 View Post
    Its not secret to the world o fbaseball what Freel is. I dont think the Reds are going to fool anyone into thinking he is something different regardless where he plays.
    True. But you get your best assessment of an automobile driving it, not sitting on the showroom floor. Having Freel sitting on the bench may send the signal that he still is not right (in the head).

    I personally would love to keep Freel on my bench as a super-sub. Our bench is simpy putrid. But I have no problem with them dangling him out there if we can get something in return. Give it a try.

    I think it was the other night, during the Mets game, where it was stated that Met's Mgr Randolph brags up Freel's hustle and all-out effort among his players.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations


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