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Thread: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

  1. #1
    Red's fan mbgrayson's Avatar
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    Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    From Monday's Post article by C. Trent:

    "Once again, the Reds struggled late. They didn't score in the last three innings of any of the four games against the Mets. This season the Reds' three lowest-scoring innings (not including extra innings) are the seventh, eighth and ninth (38, 37 and 29 runs).

    "It seems like in the past, the late innings - that's when we'd get good at-bats. We're not doing that right now," said Adam Dunn, who hit a solo home run in the fourth inning Sunday but grounded out to first to start the ninth. "It seems like people are swinging early in the counts and trying to win it with one swing. We haven't been patient like we have been in the past."

    The Reds are 2-37 when trailing after seven innings this season and 1-47 when trailing after eight innings." ).


    I agree. Nice to see Dunn recognnize this. Last year it felt like the Reds always had a chance to win a close game. This year, they just roll over and die. While maybe it's partly 'bad luck', it seems like there is simply a lack of competitive fire.

    A few other interesting facts, some of which others have mentioned, from THIS MLB standings site:

    In 1 run games, the Reds are 12-15.
    In extra inning games, the Reds are 4-6.
    Reds actual record: 37-55
    Reds expected (pythag) record: 43-49
    vs. left handed starters: 12-22
    vs. right handed starters: 25-33

    Overall team stats:
    Batting: .251/.320/.430 w/131 HRs(#1 in MLB)
    Starting Pitching: 26-36, 4.73 ERA, 1.40 WHIP
    Relief Pitching: 11-19, 4.76 ERA, 1.47 WHIP

    A stat I couldn't find: team RISP...what is the Reds team average with runners in scoring position compared to MLB average RISP? Anyone?
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  3. #2
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Sure:

    .234/.338/.394 OPS of .732

    BA is last in NL, OPS is 12th of 16.

    NL Avg: .259/.349/.404 (.753)
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    During the game yesterday on TV they showed what most of us probably already knew: that they were getting precious little production from their 4,5,6 hitters. The top third and last third were at or close to league averages but the middle third was woefully below the league average. This was based on batting avg and RBI.

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    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by mbgrayson View Post
    While maybe it's partly 'bad luck', it seems like there is simply a lack of competitive fire.
    I hesitate to blame something as intangible as "competitive fire". I think Dunn is right -- their approach has been poor.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

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    Member NJReds's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    I think that 'lethargic' also describes the coaching staff. When Lohse started grooving fastballs to the likes of Castro and Milledge, where was the pitching coach? How about a quick visit to the mound. Peterson went out a couple times to calm his pitchers nerves. The only time a Reds coach visits the mound is to pull the pitcher.

  7. #6
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    You should expect a team to perform worse in the late innings due to the fact that they are often facing better pitchers. That said, I don't know what to make of this:

    Code:
    7th Inning and beyond, Min 50 AB.  
    
    Name			AB	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
    Scott Hatteberg		79	.316	.407	.506	.913
    Javier Valentin		52	.288	.339	.462	.801
    Edwin Encarnacion	70	.259	.351	.365	.715
    Ryan Freel		59	.254	.343	.356	.699
    Brandon Phillips	87	.268	.303	.393	.695
    Josh Hamilton		60	.233	.309	.384	.692
    Adam Dunn		87	.225	.325	.353	.678
    Ken Griffey Jr.		81	.202	.308	.315	.623
    Jeff Conine		57	.242	.297	.288	.585
    Alex Gonzalez		81	.183	.217	.365	.582
    David Ross		57	.183	.219	.267	.485
    Only two guys have even been respectable. Dunn & Junior have sucked out loud. When you look what our bullpen has done and then what our offense has done, this team was built to get leads and then blow them.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #7
    '92 Les Paul Custom Az Red's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Only Hatteburg leading by example. Valentines are mostly PH at bats.

    I guess its hard to get excited about the late innings with the Red's bullpen giving up leads. Again, I would attribute this to lack of focus/ no fired up leadership. Who is wearing the rally cap in the Red's dugout?
    Hope Springs Eternal

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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Only two guys have even been respectable. Dunn & Junior have sucked out loud. When you look what our bullpen has done and then what our offense has done, this team was built to get leads and then blow them.
    You nailed it on the head. We get the lead and then the pitching in the 8th inning and our hitting late = bad W / L record. It also shows that it's just not the bullpen why the team is struggling. I remember back a few years ago where the team really was bad, but they had like in the double digits of walk off or late inning rallys. I think this is a better team, but something is not quite right.
    And This One Belongs to the REDS!!!

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    During the game yesterday on TV they showed what most of us probably already knew: that they were getting precious little production from their 4,5,6 hitters. The top third and last third were at or close to league averages but the middle third was woefully below the league average. This was based on batting avg and RBI.
    You mean batting Conine 4th HASNT been working?

  11. #10
    Score Early, Score Often gonelong's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Only two guys have even been respectable. Dunn & Junior have sucked out loud. When you look what our bullpen has done and then what our offense has done, this team was built to get leads and then blow them.
    I suspect that Dunn and Jr lead the team by a very large margin for the number of pitching changes when they come to the plate. These two guys are more often than not specifically facing the toughest pitcher the other team can throw at them (loogy or closer) on a nightly basis. When the other guys come to the plate they might work a guy against them, but its generally not one of the premium guys brought in to specifically get them out.

    At least that is what I seem to notice.

    GL

  12. #11
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    I think what we see here is partially a result of lineup construction. Rarely do we have our best hitters stacked together. As you've seen in other posts, Dunn is actually our best OPS vL. There is no advantage is separating him from Griffey to avoid LOOGYs, only the disadvantage of creating more opportunities for our best hitters to be avoided.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #12
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    W/ RISP

    Code:
    RK	TEAM		GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	TB	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
    1	Atlanta		91	818	333	230	53	5	23	362	317	.281	.367	.443	.809
    2	Philadelphia	91	878	366	235	52	7	29	388	345	.268	.365	.442	.807
    3	Milwaukee	89	763	310	194	44	6	29	337	292	.254	.341	.442	.783
    4	Houston		90	816	313	215	50	7	21	342	301	.263	.361	.419	.780
    5	LA Dodgers	91	861	345	247	45	9	13	349	325	.287	.374	.405	.779
    6	San Francisco	88	726	292	190	30	8	19	293	266	.262	.363	.404	.766
    7	Colorado	91	856	339	226	41	8	18	337	316	.264	.369	.394	.763
    8	San Diego	90	742	294	194	46	6	19	309	272	.261	.345	.416	.761
    9	Chicago Cubs	89	849	329	234	44	5	21	351	308	.276	.345	.413	.758
    10	St. Louis	88	717	300	189	41	2	17	285	276	.264	.345	.397	.743
    11	Florida		92	810	309	206	42	7	21	325	286	.254	.339	.401	.740
    12	Cincinnati	91	708	276	166	29	3	26	279	258	.234	.338	.394	.732
    13	NY Mets		91	794	297	198	44	4	17	301	274	.249	.340	.379	.719
    14	Washington	91	747	280	183	42	4	16	281	264	.245	.333	.376	.709
    15	Arizona		93	728	281	172	30	9	17	271	266	.236	.330	.372	.703
    16	Pittsburgh	91	763	284	190	41	3	15	282	267	.249	.323	.370	.692
    National League		90	786	309	204	42	6	20	318	290	.259	.349	.404	.753
    And because I'm a masochist, "Close and Late"
    Code:
    RK	TEAM		GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	TB	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
    1	St. Louis	47	384	74	128	19	2	16	199	72	.333	.404	.518	.922
    2	Philadelphia	56	474	92	137	32	5	16	227	86	.289	.376	.479	.855
    3	Atlanta		51	396	68	107	24	3	13	176	65	.270	.349	.444	.793
    4	Milwaukee	49	400	63	99	26	2	19	186	60	.248	.325	.465	.790
    5	Florida		57	487	71	129	28	4	17	216	67	.265	.330	.444	.774
    6	Colorado	57	500	75	132	23	6	11	200	70	.264	.355	.400	.755
    7	Arizona		60	511	81	131	18	3	17	206	74	.256	.342	.403	.746
    8	Chicago Cubs	57	504	73	140	24	4	8	196	69	.278	.342	.389	.731
    9	LA Dodgers	57	491	62	128	20	4	9	183	58	.261	.346	.373	.718
    10	Houston		61	568	79	134	22	0	17	207	77	.236	.322	.364	.687
    11	Pittsburgh	52	465	57	109	19	3	13	173	56	.234	.310	.372	.682
    12	Washington	62	488	62	123	22	3	3	160	58	.252	.338	.328	.665
    13	NY Mets		45	425	47	96	17	1	8	139	43	.226	.318	.327	.645
    14	San Francisco	58	566	63	131	19	2	11	187	59	.231	.313	.330	.644
    15	San Diego	57	564	66	119	28	3	13	192	59	.211	.279	.340	.619
    16	Cincinnati	59	513	57	105	17	2	12	162	54	.205	.277	.316	.593
    National League		55	484	68	122	22	3	13	188	64	.254	.333	.393	.726
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 07-16-2007 at 01:10 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #13
    Yay! dabvu2498's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I think what we see here is partially a result of lineup construction. Rarely do we have our best hitters stacked together. As you've seen in other posts, Dunn is actually our best OPS vL. There is no advantage is separating him from Griffey to avoid LOOGYs, only the disadvantage of creating more opportunities for our best hitters to be avoided.
    OPS vs. LHP

    Phillips .995
    Griffey .891
    Conine .760
    Ross .699
    Dunn .684
    Hamilton .650
    EE .645
    Gonzo .589
    Freel .398

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/Statis...getype=batting

    Not alot of good options when you've got that to work with.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  15. #14
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    It seems to me that when the Reds have had good late inning action, it's been because they've had strong fourth and fifth outfielders off the bench. Michael Tucker and Alex Ochoa types. Or the best hitters were already on the bench that day because of Bob Boone's crazy lineups.

    It also doesn't help if you know you're going to lose the lead in the eighth anyway.

  16. #15
    Member VR's Avatar
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    Re: Late inning lethargy (From the Post)

    Disturbing.

    I don't even want to see ERA or runs allowed by inning.

    What about proposing all games be switched to 7 innings?
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand


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