He's an athlete that makes a ton of money. He may not get off scott free but there's no way he's doing time. He may have to pay a fine and he may have to do some community service but he is not doing time.
He's an athlete that makes a ton of money. He may not get off scott free but there's no way he's doing time. He may have to pay a fine and he may have to do some community service but he is not doing time.
Originally Posted by Raisor
I don't know, Chip. This isn't Marcia Clark he's dealing with, it's the feds.
We'll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective ~ Kurt Vonnegut
Amen. Hard to argue that humans have souls when you hear this stuff.
It's a fairly well known fact in the criminal law legal community that the Feds don't indict unless they've got you absolutely dead to rights.
There is a reason why even criminal trials are fairly rare in federal court -- the evidence against defendants is generally overwhelming and the sentencing guidelines (which lots of judges still use as "guidance" even though the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional as mandatory practice) offer incentive for timely admission of guilt and acceptance of responsibility.
This indictment is bad, bad news for Vick. I'd be shocked if he doesn't plea, but I doubt he'll get any kind of sweetheart deal.
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Just plain sickening and sad. It'll be a travesty if he is found guilty and walks away with only a fine and no significant jailtime. Put him away and throw away the key.
couldn't agree more.
School's out. What did you expect?
And they don't like to lose as much as anyone. They may work out a plea deal or his lawyers may tie this up in court as long as they can but when it's all said and done, he will not do a minute of prison time. The more serious of the charges is the interstate commerce thing. The dogfighting charge only carries a year, max. Vick is going to want this to go away ASAP so he can get back to playing football. Even if the commissioner does suspend him, it won't be for any more than a few games. My guess is they drop the interstate commerce thing and plead guilty to the dogfighting charge and he will pay a fine and maybe do some community service (Hopefully something at a SPCA) but he will not do time.
I disagree.
I think he'll do more than a year.
Legal odds against Vick just got much longer
By Lester Munson
ESPN.com
Updated: July 17, 2007
A grand jury indicted Atlanta Falcons' quarterback Michael Vick on Tuesday, which at least partially answers one question that has lingered since the news first broke about an alleged dogfighting operation on property owned by Vick in Virginia: Was Vick involved? Obviously, we know now that investigators believe he was.
There are plenty of football-related issues still to be resolved about Vick's future with the Falcons and the NFL, but those might be the least of his concerns right now. Questions about his legal future abound at the moment. Here are some answers.
What do these federal charges mean for Michael Vick?
Vick is in real trouble. He is up against the might and majesty of the U.S. government with all of its agents, all of its investigative techniques, and all of its skilled prosecutors. If he has any doubts about the power and skill of the forces arrayed against him, he can call Scooter Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, or he can call Lord Conrad Black, the disgraced media mogul now facing time in a federal penitentiary. If he still isn't convinced, he can call Jeff Skilling, the zillionaire Enron CEO who is now residing in a federal pen. All three of them hired brilliant (and expensive) lawyers. All three thought they could explain their way out from under federal charges. And all three were convicted. Vick can, and probably will, hire some of America's best defense lawyers, but they will face a serious battle.
Would Vick be sent to jail if he is convicted?
Yes. It's hard to imagine any other outcome. The charges are serious, and the evidence against Vick presented at trial will be nasty. The government's case includes evidence that Vick and his cohorts "tested" pit bulls for ferocity. If the dogs failed the test, the indictment charges, they were executed by hanging or drowning. In one case, with Vick present, the indictment says a dog was slammed to the ground until it was dead. In another incident, a dog was soaked with a hose and then electrocuted. Those aren't the sort of transgressions that lead to probation and community service. It's the kind of behavior that results in punishment, and the punishment will be jail time.
What is the next step for Vick?
Vick will now watch to see which of his three co-defendants will be the first to make a deal with federal prosecutors. Each of them will think seriously about turning on Vick and offering testimony against him in return for less time in jail. Vick obviously is the prime target of the government effort. Prosecutors and agents will be willing to talk with his co-defendants about a deal if they are willing to help prove the case against Vick. The government indictment discloses four witnesses who have already agreed to testify against him. If all three of of his co-defendants join these four witnesses against Vick, he and his lawyers might suggest that he, too, should talk to the government about a deal that would minimize his time in jail.
Vick is charged with "conspiracy" and violations of the "Travel Act." What does that mean?
The conspiracy charge will make things extra difficult for Vick and his lawyers. Under federal laws, the conspiracy charge allows federal prosecutors to link Vick to things that occurred even if he was not present. If the prosecutors can connect the four defendants, then crimes committed by one of them can be used to add to the evidence against the others. It's a tricky legal procedure that prosecutors love and defense lawyers detest. The Travel Act is a device invented by Robert F. Kennedy when he was Attorney General in the early Sixties. It was designed for use against organized crime and made it easier to prove cases against hoodlums. In the sports world, it was used most recently in the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics bribery scandal. Federal prosecutors charged the Utah organizers under the Travel Act and proved millions of dollars in bribes. Vick, however, can take some hope from the fact that U.S. District Judge David Sam found the organizers not guilty of violating the Travel Act, even though there was powerful evidence of bribery.
What was Vick's role in the dogfighting conspiracy described in the indictment?
According to the indictment, Vick was in the middle of everything from beginning to end. He purchased a vacant piece of property for $34,000, the indictment says. He then had sheds built for training dogs and staging fights and a fence erected to shield the operation from view. And finally, the indictment says, he had a two-story frame house with a basketball court put up as a residence for the people taking care of the dogs. If you believe the indictment, the Vick property had everything anyone could want in a dogfighting operation.
When would Vick's trial begin?
The federal courthouse in Richmond, Va., is the home of the nationally recognized "rocket docket." Cases move quickly in Richmond, more quickly than in any other courthouse in the federal system. Vick's lawyers will be looking for delays and for time to prepare a defense, but the trial likely would begin in a matter of four to six months.
Are the federal authorities in Richmond tough on crime?
Ask Ralph Sampson, the former NBA star. He fell behind in child support payments to seven children that he had with four women, the kind of thing that is ordinarily worked out in a settlement. But instead of a settlement, Sampson found himself charged with felonies in federal court. And then, very quickly, he found himself in jail for two months on a child support charge. Yes, they're tough on crime in Richmond, and they might be particularly tough on crimes involving the torture and killing of dogs.
ESPN.com's Lester Munson is a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940312
The first thing that has to happen is the NFL needs to suspend Vick indefinately. This is absolutly sick and disgusting what Vick has gotten himself into. This is a huge black eye for the NFL because Vick has always been promoted as a star, especially in the South, and there are a TON of dog and animal lovers out there that are just enraged about what Vick did. If I were the NFL I would even go to the extent of punishing the Falcons. They had to have some clue about what has been going on with Vick and turned a blind eye.
As for Vick in court, I hope they nail him. Regardless of what he said his envolvement is, he had set up dog fighting/training kennels on his property. How freakin stupid can you be. He has skated by way to long on the fact that he is an amazing athlete and its about time for him to pay the price for being a pretty sorry human being.
I'd like to know how long he has been involved in this and HOW he got involved in it to begin with? It's simpy disgusting.
Guess I'll wait for the ESPN movie.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
I think it would stun alot of people to know how common this kind of thing is.
When all is said and done more is said than done.
And there's also a virtual multitude of inhabitants in the South that will champion Vick for any and all involvement he had with dog fighting.
There's going to be people on both sides of this issue, unfortunately.
You'll have your animal rights activists, etc on that side vs. people who believe dog fighting (and other animal fighting) is completely fine. It's differing societal values and cultural norms. Everyone has an opinion on something like this, and you'd be surprised that not everyone would be on the same side.
Me?
You can put dog fighting in the same category as cock fighting, bull fighting, boxing, ancient gladiator fighting, and historically chronicled fights to the death in Asian civilizations, for my tastes. They are all, in essence, forms of entertainment, albeit morally questionable.
Should be interesting to see how all of this unfolds over the next 1+ year.
Think I'll walk around at lunch and see what a #7 Falcons jersey is going for.
My guess is that a whole bunch of them are about to start showing up in Odd Lots and The Dollar Store.
Dog fighting has quite a few more ramifications than just the animal cruelty issue.
One: Underground dog fighting events typically are linked to a variety of gang activities, including ritualized hazing, drug trafficking activities and a general desensitiaztion of violence.
Two: Many fighting dog owners will steal local household pets in order to use them as "bait" in training their fighting dogs.
And finally, the biggest issue: Dogs that have been trained to fight are a fairly serious public safety concern. What if one of those dogs gets loose? A few municipalities, including my hometown, have banned ownership or possession of pit bulls altogether.
That's a bit different than a cockfight or bullfight. The animal cruelty issues are similar, but dog fighting is more of an issue in this country than either of those two that you mentioned.
When all is said and done more is said than done.
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