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Thread: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

  1. #61
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    How about getting his OPS higher then our current 1st baseman?

    Votto's not getting a raw deal, folks.
    Damn, I didn't know OPS is the only stat to use how good a player is....

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  3. #62
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    So you think there is no difference in MLB and AAA competition?
    Not to the point where I don't think Votto can go .280/.365/.440 the Reds of the year in a Reds uniform and be ready to take it a step further in Cincinnati for 2008.

    When you go from a negative hitting environment to a positive hitting environment while bringing in a very high line drive percentage I think you will be just fine.

  4. #63
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Prf15 View Post
    Damn, I didn't know OPS is the only stat to use how good a player is....
    Would you like me to use BA and OBP? SLG?
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  5. #64
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Like reds44 intimated earlier on, it's his swing, more specifically his long swing. We have argued this point before but to no avail. Here's the quote from an analyst on the ESPN '06 futures game blog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Joey Votto (Reds) probably put on the biggest show during BP, which is not the same as being the most impressive. Votto launched several balls into the right-field bleachers, hitting the fence at the back of the stands at least once. He does have a wide stance and a long swing, which will limit his ability to make contact going forward. At least he didn't swing and miss during BP. That's embarrassing
    Question is why do you discount that information DD? Of course I am not necc. saying the author is absolutely right but it's certainly something to be cognizant of going forward. And I must admit that his results since then have leant themselves to him having a hole and since it has only been in AA and AAA he hasn't fallen completely apart.

    I will just believe it or not once I have actually seen how the opposition at the next level attack him once they have had a chance to break him down. What will he do then?

    His future may depend on him fixing that hole in AAA right now. Although according to a recent interview he doesn't think he has a long swing (or a slow bat, which I had not heard before prior to the interview), we shall see.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  6. #65
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Like reds44 intimated earlier on, it's his swing, more specifically his long swing. We have argued this point before but to no avail. Here's the quote from an analyst on the ESPN '06 futures game blog.

    Question is why do you discount that information DD? Of course I am not necc. saying the author is absolutely right but it's certainly something to be cognizant of going forward. And I must admit that his results since then have leant themselves to him having a hole and since it has only been in AA and AAA he hasn't fallen completely apart.

    I will just believe it or not once I have actually seen how the opposition at the next level attack him once they have had a chance to break him down. What will he do then?

    His future may depend on him fixing that hole in AAA right now. Although according to a recent interview he doesn't think he has a long swing (or a slow bat, which I had not heard before prior to the interview), we shall see.
    Well, first off, one scouts opinion doesn't mean so much to me. He has moved forward a level since then and has done what? Lowered his strikeout rate and improved his line drive rate.

    Joey has said in an interview that in the futures games pitchers try to throw 100 and he tries to hit home runs. I don't care too much what a 'futures game' scout thinks based on the futures game last year where Joey admittedly was trying to hit a home run.

  7. #66
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    I certainly hope Joey is a good one but I went to about 8 Bats games this year and the ball just didn't seem liked it jumped off his bat. He did bat about .380 with a homer when I saw him play so it's not like I'm saying this when he was in a cold stretch. I'm no scout but that's what I noticed. I think he could be a Lyle Overbay type but we'll see how he does when he gets to the show.
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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Well, first off, one scouts opinion doesn't mean so much to me. He has moved forward a level since then and has done what? Lowered his strikeout rate and improved his line drive rate.

    Joey has said in an interview that in the futures games pitchers try to throw 100 and he tries to hit home runs. I don't care too much what a 'futures game' scout thinks based on the futures game last year where Joey admittedly was trying to hit a home run.
    Ok fair enough, I cannot fault you for not taking 1 scouts opinion to heart. Of course OTOH you shouldn't fault me/few of us for having reservations based on the opinion of 1 scout or something else. I have never said the scout was 100% right but you are fighting his opinion as if to say he is 100% wrong.

    I am just not prepared to deal in absolutes yet until he has had sufficient AB's in the major leagues, for the opposition to have a book on him and use it. But until then I will have that opinion at the forefront of my mind when it comes to Votto.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Ok fair enough, I cannot fault you for not taking 1 scouts opinion to heart. Of course OTOH you shouldn't fault me/few of us for having reservations based on the opinion of 1 scout or something else. I have never said the scout was 100% right but you are fighting his opinion as if to say he is 100% wrong.

    I am just not prepared to deal in absolutes yet until he has had sufficient AB's in the major leagues, for the opposition to have a book on him and use it. But until then I will have that opinion at the forefront of my mind when it comes to Votto.
    I don't fault you or anyone else for having any questions about it.
    He said his long swing would cause his numbers to decline as he moved up and well, he moved up and that wasn't exactly the case. I am not saying he is wrong, but I don't think he is right exactly either. He suggests Votto's contact would lower as he moved forward, but he did move forward, and his contact has gone up slightly.

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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Mark Bellhorn, Chad Moeller, Pedro Lopez, Enrique Cruz, and Dewayne Wise have all been called up this year. I know there situations are different, but ITS TIME to give Votto some ab's in the majors. The team is 13 gb and 18 below .500. ITS TIME ITS TIME ITS TIME!

  11. #70
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    FYI, HAtteberg has the 9th best OPS of first baseman in the majors this year.

    On your list, he is ahead of Berkman, Gonzalez, Delgado, plus ahead of Konerko,and Helton.

    If Votto can walk and hit 20 HR's per season, he can post a .900 OPS. THere's currently only 7 firstbaseman in the majors at that level.
    Its a down year for Berkman and Del Gado. Gonzalez plays in a canyon and Hatte in a shoebox. Year in year out in these power nutty times, a 1B needs to be .900 OPS plus IMO. If Votto does that as you suggest and still only has 20 HRs that is fine by me. I just want .500+ slugging and at least .375 OBP to go with it out of the 1B spot. When the power wanes at 1B, teams start trying to get it from other spots like 2B and SS. When you have a Barry Larkin or Joe Morgan there you get by just fine, otherwise teams start compromising other things (namely OBP or defense where its critical) in the name of making up that power deficiency.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  12. #71
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    It is obvious this has become The Great Joey Votto Debate, so I will take a stab. Votto has a .390 OBP and a .454 Slg. It is not quite what mth123 might want, but I believe he will do that next year. Let's split the difference. We have an option for Hatteberg next year; so let Hatteberg start and Votto back him up next year. He will get the experience necessary to be the full-time starter at first in 2009, and I think that will be best for the Reds

  13. #72
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    One thing people will notice from what both Lookout and Bats announcer claim is that when Jay Bruce hits a ball it has a certain sound you seldom hear and it jumps off his bat.Even on the radio one night ,you knew from sound the ball was gone was very odd it did have a different sound.

    I watched Joey Votto , here in Indy on July 4th , what impressed me was he hit an opposite field homer in the first and it looked like he just flicked his bat the ball. Watching him in batting practice he was stroking the ball out to all fields. He has not had a big power year at Louisville but from what I saw in the game and during batting practice he should hit for decent power in the majors.

    I'd say .280-.290 with 20-25 homers would be realistic by his 2nd or 3rd year.

  14. #73
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I don't fault you or anyone else for having any questions about it.
    He said his long swing would cause his numbers to decline as he moved up and well, he moved up and that wasn't exactly the case. I am not saying he is wrong, but I don't think he is right exactly either. He suggests Votto's contact would lower as he moved forward, but he did move forward, and his contact has gone up slightly.
    Agreed and that's why I am not on here all the time discussing getting rid of Votto and saying he stinks and screaming it from the mountain tops. But it's more a situation where I have decided to harness my excitement for him until I see him more often.

    And likewise have mentioned here so that anyone else would perhaps not have higher expectations for Joey early on. Call it pre-ventative maintenance so to speak.

    It's similiar to what happened to Homer. Right now there are those who's expectations of him were unrealistic, he's still awesome and likely will be dominant at some point. But the problem there is they didn't hear ahead of time that he will still need to develop while in the majors. Now there are a few calling him a bum, and for what? Because he wasn't as advertised, which is completely the fault of the Reds F.O., who said he wouldn't be here until he was ready. He wasn't ready and now he has to take unneccessary flack.

    The 1st true sign IMO that this F.O. is more about the dollar then they have stated. Just hoping that people will "get it" with Joey and give him some rope before they call him a bust as well.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  15. #74
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    I think Votto will take a while to adjust to MLB pitching. He strikes me as the "vulture" type (did I just make up a useful baseball term?), who does an exceptional job of thriving on bad pitching but is many times over-matched and the more quality pitching.

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    Re: 8/3/07 - Minor League Update

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    I think Votto will take a while to adjust to MLB pitching. He strikes me as the "vulture" type (did I just make up a useful baseball term?), who does an exceptional job of thriving on bad pitching but is many times over-matched and the more quality pitching.
    Tell that to clay bucholtz


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