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Thread: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    I have heard conflicting reports and just want to make sure. If the Reds pick his option up for $13 million, which seems like a no-brainer to me, can we deal him in the offseason? Or do we have to wait until after June 15? (Someone posted that we would have to wait until after 6/15/08, which is the first time I had heard of that.)

    TIA

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I have heard conflicting reports and just want to make sure. If the Reds pick his option up for $13 million, which seems like a no-brainer to me, can we deal him in the offseason? Or do we have to wait until after June 15? (Someone posted that we would have to wait until after 6/15/08, which is the first time I had heard of that.)

    TIA
    That is true unless you can talk him and his agent into changing the no-trade clause (that he would have until that date, at which time he would then have a limited no trade clause something like 19 teams he won't go to) to get him a LTC somewhere else after dealt. My guess is that they will likely attempt to do so.
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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    That is true unless you can talk him and his agent into changing the no-trade clause (that he would have until that date, at which time he would then have a limited no trade clause something like 19 teams he won't go to) to get him a LTC somewhere else after dealt. My guess is that they will likely attempt to do so.
    Thanks Soto Jose.

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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    I would expect that the players union would push Dunn and his agent to demand momentary compensation for dropping the no trade till June 15th clause.

    They don't like contracts to be changed unless more cash is thrown in.
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    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    only if he waves his no-trade clause. He probably would be willing to do that in exchange for a contract extension from the acquiring team.
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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.

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    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    No trade clauses aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's simply about leverage for the player. Nothing more.

    If the Reds truly want to move Dunn after the option is picked up, they will. I'm not even sure it will take a LTC. Probably just a contender so Dunn can have a better chance to cash in.
    "I saw Wedding Crashers accidentally. I bought a ticket for Grizzly Man and went into the wrong theater. After an hour, I figured I was in the wrong theater, but I kept waiting. Thatís the thing about bear attacks. They come when you least expect it."-Dwight K. Schrute

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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.
    I'm pretty sure this was DanO's mistake, not Krivsky's.

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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    I'm pretty sure this was DanO's mistake, not Krivsky's.
    You might be right. I thought Dunn signed his extension in 2006, but maybe it was '05.

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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    I honestly believe the Reds will pick up the option(duh) and sign Dunn to a 4-5 year contract. He will be a Cincinnati Red for a long time.

    For them to do otherwise proves that new ownership was full of, um, not truthful. I don't think they want to put themselves in that position.

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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    I'm pretty sure this was DanO's mistake, not Krivsky's.
    Ya gotta love the "what have you done for me lately?" attitude sometimes coinciding with very short memories.

    At the end of this season, the Reds will have paid Dunn $18.5 million for his last two seasons, and that's a figure that's below market value for his type of production during the latter two arbitration years. If Dunn would have gone to arbitration in both 2006 and 2007, he'd likely have made quite a bit more than the $18.5 million the Reds will be paying him over the two seasons. Heck, in 2006 Dunn was seeking $8.95 million in arbitration (and would have likely won) so 2006 alone saved the Reds nearly $1.5 million by itself.

    Secondly, next year's option at $13 million is also likely below market value for a 28-year-old player of Dunn's caliber in what would be a free agent year. That option isn't eating up an arbitration eligible year; it's eating up a free agent year, and that's the important distinction here.

    Tally up the $31.5 million total cost of that deal over three years, and the Reds will have saved some nice coin over what Dunn would have been paid had the Reds gone to arbitration with him and paid him at market value for each season.

    The no-trade clause through June 15th followed by a limited no-trade clause thereafter if the option is picked up was part of the give-and-take agreed upon in exchange for a lower total dollar amount. The Reds got Dunn at below market value for three seasons, including a free agent season, and Dunn got himself a bit of trade protection during the final season, which is also a free agent year for him in terms of service time.

    It was an excellent deal for the Reds in 2006 when it happened, and it's still an excellent deal for the Reds right now.
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.
    It actually makes a lot of sense to me. It's set up precisely so that Dunn could avoid the Arroyo scenario of getting extended and then traded. However, because it's the middle of June, if the Reds are out of it, they have ample time to move him to a contender.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Ya gotta love the "what have you done for me lately?" attitude sometimes coinciding with very short memories.

    At the end of this season, the Reds will have paid Dunn $18.5 million for his last two seasons, and that's a figure that's below market value for his type of production during the latter two arbitration years. If Dunn would have gone to arbitration in both 2006 and 2007, he'd likely have made quite a bit more than the $18.5 million the Reds will be paying him over the two seasons. Heck, in 2006 Dunn was seeking $8.95 million in arbitration (and would have likely won) so 2006 alone saved the Reds nearly $1.5 million by itself.

    Secondly, next year's option at $13 million is also likely below market value for a 28-year-old player of Dunn's caliber in what would be a free agent year. That option isn't eating up an arbitration eligible year; it's eating up a free agent year, and that's the important distinction here.

    Tally up the $31.5 million total cost of that deal over three years, and the Reds will have saved some nice coin over what Dunn would have been paid had the Reds gone to arbitration with him and paid him at market value for each season.

    The no-trade clause through June 15th followed by a limited no-trade clause thereafter if the option is picked up was part of the give-and-take agreed upon in exchange for a lower total dollar amount. The Reds got Dunn at below market value for three seasons, including a free agent season, and Dunn got himself a bit of trade protection during the final season, which is also a free agent year for him in terms of service time.

    It was an excellent deal for the Reds in 2006 when it happened, and it's still an excellent deal for the Reds right now.


    This is perhaps the most clear and coherent explanation of why Krivsky made a good move with Dunn. I share your dismay at the disdain both he and Griffey get. I think this contract shows a lot of give and take on both parts. Plus I've always felt it showed that both sides wanted Dunn to stay.

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    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Ya gotta love the "what have you done for me lately?" attitude sometimes coinciding with very short memories.
    Right on, broham!
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    Re: Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?

    Quote Originally Posted by guttle11 View Post
    No trade clauses aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's simply about leverage for the player. Nothing more.

    If the Reds truly want to move Dunn after the option is picked up, they will. I'm not even sure it will take a LTC. Probably just a contender so Dunn can have a better chance to cash in.
    Actually, a no trade clause is completely enforceable, so it is worth the paper it is written on.

    Dunn can choose to enforce it, or make demands (reasonable or not) to waive it.

    Yes it gives Dunn leverage. Because the Reds can't trade him without his consent.


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