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Thread: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

  1. #1
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Griffey: .276/.384/.516, .900 OPS
    Phillips: .272/.319/.462, .781 OPS
    Dunn: .257/.364/.540, 904 OPS

    One of these things is not like the others... one of these thing does not belong....

    And if you're worried about Dunn batting cleanup against lefties:

    Dunn vL: .238/.355/.474, .829 OPS
    Phillips vL: .282/.327/.451, .778 OPS

    Really, there's just no reason he should be batting cleanup and Dunn should be batting 5th, even to split up the lefties.

    High average, low OBP, decent SLG, good speed. Perfect guy for the 5th or 6th spot. Dunn gets on base more, Dunn slugs more. Those more frequent hits of Phillips will help more when he's got an OBP machine ahead of him. And Dunn's homers will help more when he doesn't have a frequent out maker and double play machine ahead of him. Let Phillips drive in Dunn, not the other way around.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 08-16-2007 at 05:51 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    I'm sorry, this can't be right, because I've heard nothing but praise for Phillips on the radio whereas Dunn is simply not a run producer.

  4. #3
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    RMR.... I think you are preaching to the chior, problem is the Reds just don't seem to care about things like stats that make sense.

  5. #4
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    I would say something about Dunn and Griffey"s attitu... nevermind.

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    Member VR's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    I'm totally fine with Phillips in the 4 spot. He's always hit better with men on...he appears to thrive on the chance.


    Dunn should hit second in any lineup...end of discussion.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

  7. #6
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    I wish Dunn would say he's a switch hitter so the splitting leftie argument would be moot
    Go Gators!

  8. #7
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Adam Dunn has never played for a manager who knew where to bat him in the lineup. I agree with VR-bat him second.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  9. #8
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Griffey: .276/.384/.516, .900 OPS
    Phillips: .272/.319/.462, .781 OPS
    Dunn: .257/.364/.540, 904 OPS

    One of these things is not like the others... one of these thing does not belong....

    And if you're worried about Dunn batting cleanup against lefties:

    Dunn vL: .238/.355/.474, .829 OPS
    Phillips vL: .282/.327/.451, .778 OPS

    Really, there's just no reason he should be batting cleanup and Dunn should be batting 5th, even to split up the lefties.

    High average, low OBP, decent SLG, good speed. Perfect guy for the 5th or 6th spot. Dunn gets on base more, Dunn slugs more. Those more frequent hits of Phillips will help more when he's got an OBP machine ahead of him. And Dunn's homers will help more when he doesn't have a frequent out maker and double play machine ahead of him. Let Phillips drive in Dunn, not the other way around.
    Dunn has been borderline pathetic vs LHPs this season. It's great that he hit well versus them last season, but the .685 OPS vs LHP in '07 is more telling. Thanks, but this season I'd rather see Phillips breaking up Griffey and Dunn. The stats don't lie. If the opponent brings in a LHP to face Griffey, it's a big decision if they want to leave him in vs Phillips since he has flat out mashed them in '07.

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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    Dunn should hit second in any lineup...end of discussion.
    Wow, that opens a whole new one. I think he should hit 3rd in most lineups.

  11. #10
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    I'd bat him 2nd as well. I don't want him coming up with the bases empty and 2 outs in the first inning 50% of the time. Strikeouts avoid doubles plays and it maximizes his AB and his OBP. He's also a good base runner with decent speed. If he bats cleanup, he's either batting with men on or to leadoff the inning. Anything higher than 5th.

    And I'll take the career split numbers over the single year sample. I don't think Dunn's ability to hit lefties has somehow gotten significantly worse this year.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #11
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    I think most would tend to agree with you RMR; but here is an interesting scenario....

    Like most, I am a firm believer in having your high OB% guys (table setters) at the top of the batting order. At one time I was a strong advocate for Dunn at the #2 spot. But that situation may have changed with players like Hamilton (.377 OB%) and Keppinger (.413 OB%). I liked seeing them at the top of the batting order. Plus, I want to see what these kids can do.

    But here are Dunn's stats batting in the #4 spot....

    Code:
        AB  R  H 2B 3B   HR   RBI   BB   HBP   SO   SB   CS   AVG   OBP  SLG    OPS
        81 17 26 3  0    11   24    10    2   18     0   1   .321  .400  765   1.165
    My biggest concern is this team's inability to hit LH'd pitching. And especially guys like Dunn and Jr with RISP...

    Jr .... .340 OB% .342 SLG% .184 B/A
    Dunn .... .318 OB% .375 SLG% .224 B/A
    Last edited by GAC; 08-16-2007 at 09:26 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  13. #12
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I'd bat him 2nd as well. I don't want him coming up with the bases empty and 2 outs in the first inning 50% of the time. Strikeouts avoid doubles plays and it maximizes his AB and his OBP. He's also a good base runner with decent speed. If he bats cleanup, he's either batting with men on or to leadoff the inning. Anything higher than 5th.

    And I'll take the career split numbers over the single year sample. I don't think Dunn's ability to hit lefties has somehow gotten significantly worse this year.
    I'll take performance over ability in determining this year's lineup. If Dunn starts to hit LHPs then he can be moved back to a better spot in the lineup vs LHPs. But for now, he shouldn't be hitting as much vs LHPs as Phillips.

  14. #13
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I'll take performance over ability in determining this year's lineup. If Dunn starts to hit LHPs then he can be moved back to a better spot in the lineup vs LHPs. But for now, he shouldn't be hitting as much vs LHPs as Phillips.
    Of course you realize that Phillips gets the benefit of hitting between Griffey and Dunn against lefties so he is naturally the guy that other teams are going to pitch to. He should be outdoing both of them by a wide margin as far as batting average goes.

    Dunn on the other hand has had Gonzalez, Conine, or Ross behind him. If he lets those pitches go by to make the pitcher pitch to him and takes his walks (which he should do) he isn't "clutch" and needs to "expand his zone." When he hacks a little at that crap he gets himself out. Its really a situation where the rules have been designed against him and the results (like a .120 or so OPS advantage don't seem to matter). According to some, the only thing that would categorize Dunn as successful is for him to swing at everything and put in the river every time.

    I like Phillips a lot, but the fact that he has had a pretty good year while sitting in the catbird seat doesn't change the fact that he is clearly a lesser offensive player than Griffey or Dunn (or even Hamilton). Make no mistake as to who makes this line-up go. Griffey and Dunn are the guys teams pitch around. Phillips enjoys that benefit quite a bit.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  15. #14
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Of course you realize that Phillips gets the benefit of hitting between Griffey and Dunn against lefties so he is naturally the guy that other teams are going to pitch to. He should be outdoing both of them by a wide margin as far as batting average goes.

    Dunn on the other hand has had Gonzalez, Conine, or Ross behind him. If he lets those pitches go by to make the pitcher pitch to him and takes his walks (which he should do) he isn't "clutch" and needs to "expand his zone." When he hacks a little at that crap he gets himself out. Its really a situation where the rules have been designed against him and the results (like a .120 or so OPS advantage don't seem to matter). According to some, the only thing that would categorize Dunn as successful is for him to swing at everything and put in the river every time.

    I like Phillips a lot, but the fact that he has had a pretty good year while sitting in the catbird seat doesn't change the fact that he is clearly a lesser offensive player than Griffey or Dunn (or even Hamilton). Make no mistake as to who makes this line-up go. Griffey and Dunn are the guys teams pitch around. Phillips enjoys that benefit quite a bit.
    The excuses for Dunn are getting pretty old. The fact of the matter is that Phillips is hammering LHPs this season. Why change it? Because Dunn doesn't get pitches grooved to him? Because Adam will have to deal with being pitched around?

    Phillips has a .958 OPS vs LHPs this season. There is no reason why he can't hit 4th vs LHPs. The only reason why anyone seems to have a problem with Phillips hitting 4th vs LHPs is that his name isn't Adam Dunn. If Conine had a .958 OPS vs LHPs, he should be hitting 4th. Same with Castro or anyone else who is teeing off on lefties.

  16. #15
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Griffey, Phillips, Dunn

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    The excuses for Dunn are getting pretty old. The fact of the matter is that Phillips is hammering LHPs this season. Why change it? Because Dunn doesn't get pitches grooved to him? Because Adam will have to deal with being pitched around?

    Phillips has a .958 OPS vs LHPs this season. There is no reason why he can't hit 4th vs LHPs. The only reason why anyone seems to have a problem with Phillips hitting 4th vs LHPs is that his name isn't Adam Dunn. If Conine had a .958 OPS vs LHPs, he should be hitting 4th. Same with Castro or anyone else who is teeing off on lefties.
    Look, I give Phillips credit for taking advantage of the situation. He does have good numbers against lefties this year. But LH or RH if I have Griffey, Phillips and Dunn followed by a selection of out machines, I pitch around Griffey, go after Phillips and then Pitch around Dunn. I do it every time all the time no matter how much Phillips may burn me.

    I do think you have one valid argument and that is by hitting Phillips in the middle it makes all three a threat. I don't believe that Phillips would be nearly the threat he is if he were hitting ahead of Gonzalez etc. Griffey and Dunn are always threats and you may be right that the configuration maximizes the whole even if Dunn individually may suffer a bit.

    BTW, I really give a lot of credit to Griffey for making a lot of this work. In 2006, Griffey was a major hacker who swung at lots of junk. With Phillips behind him, there was a huge potential for him to be completely taken out of the offense by chasing pitches out of the zone. To his credit he layed off, got his OBP back up where it should be and made pitchers pitch to him. It got him on base ahead of Phillips quite a bit (and really made Phillips a threat with a runner on base and Dunn on deck) and his other numbers all improved accordingly. I believe that if Griffey is hacking like he was in 2006, all three of these guys would have suffered.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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