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Thread: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

  1. #1
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    Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    I agree with all, except #7 - I don't see us getting a vet in FA, maybe going after Silvas, since he's a MIN guy, but I think we shy away from any veteran SP's this off-season

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61794

    Some ideas for the Reds. Many will be unpopular. I'm not wedded to them, just thoughts for now.

    1. Sign Dunn long term if possible. Guy has convinced me. He is having a terrific season. Jacoby's influence, or maybe just maturity, really have helped. If he declines you can drop him down to 6th in the order. He is making steadier contact, has become a better hitter.

    2. After 600, try to move Griffey. Jay Bruce is the heir apparent to right field. Griffey's salary will be a luxury when Jay is ready, presumably early next season.

    3. Trade EE and Votto for pitching. Don't yell. It is hard to get good young pitching for high salaried players. Teams may be more willing to give up good young hurlers for younger guys like EE and Votto. In the case of Votto, Reds are overly lefthanded, they can go (for now) with Hatteberg and Cantu platoon. Eventually, install a righty bat, maybe Cantu alone at first or possibly someone like Todd Frazier can play there. As for EE, see number 4.

    4. Install Keppinger at third base. A gamble for sure. JK may well come back to the pack if a regular. But a gamble worth taking if EE brings pitching in a deal. Reds need high OBP, table setter types, players like Kepp can be very valuable. Doesn't have EE's upside, but if pitching improves this trade-off still could work out. Freel can back up third and elsewhere. Some young third sackers on the farm could eventually take over.

    5. Decline Guardado option, but re-sign for less $$ plus incentives. Guy is such a tremendous reliever, would hate to give up on him. (Also would hate to give him $3.5 mill next year.) Didn't expect much right after surgery, but would like to see him in a Reds uni next year, after a meaningful recup period. If healthy, can be a Weathers/Bray/Burton/Guardado late innings pen with competition for the middle/early roles among Maj, Coffey, Cout, McBeth, Salmon, Stanton, based on spring performance.

    6. Keep Weathers one more year. Guy is tremendous. If he declines, move him to middle relief. You'll never get equal value in a deal.

    7. Get another veteran starter. Next off-season, must get a third starter in a deal. Reds team has a lot of possibles for the pen, but the rotation is very weak after Har/Arroyo. I can live with Livingston or Belisle as a fifth starter (skipped occasionally). I can live with a youngster, likely Homer, as a fourth starter next year. But there must be another solid vet or the team goes no place.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    I like all his points except trading Votto. I has been a long time since we had a legitimate first base prospect, and I do not believe there is another one in the system with the upside of Votto.

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by BLEEDS View Post
    I agree with all, except #7 - I don't see us getting a vet in FA, maybe going after Silvas, since he's a MIN guy, but I think we shy away from any veteran SP's this off-season

    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61794

    Some ideas for the Reds. Many will be unpopular. I'm not wedded to them, just thoughts for now.

    1. Sign Dunn long term if possible. Guy has convinced me. He is having a terrific season. Jacoby's influence, or maybe just maturity, really have helped. If he declines you can drop him down to 6th in the order. He is making steadier contact, has become a better hitter.

    2. After 600, try to move Griffey. Jay Bruce is the heir apparent to right field. Griffey's salary will be a luxury when Jay is ready, presumably early next season.

    3. Trade EE and Votto for pitching. Don't yell. It is hard to get good young pitching for high salaried players. Teams may be more willing to give up good young hurlers for younger guys like EE and Votto. In the case of Votto, Reds are overly lefthanded, they can go (for now) with Hatteberg and Cantu platoon. Eventually, install a righty bat, maybe Cantu alone at first or possibly someone like Todd Frazier can play there. As for EE, see number 4.

    4. Install Keppinger at third base. A gamble for sure. JK may well come back to the pack if a regular. But a gamble worth taking if EE brings pitching in a deal. Reds need high OBP, table setter types, players like Kepp can be very valuable. Doesn't have EE's upside, but if pitching improves this trade-off still could work out. Freel can back up third and elsewhere. Some young third sackers on the farm could eventually take over.

    5. Decline Guardado option, but re-sign for less $$ plus incentives. Guy is such a tremendous reliever, would hate to give up on him. (Also would hate to give him $3.5 mill next year.) Didn't expect much right after surgery, but would like to see him in a Reds uni next year, after a meaningful recup period. If healthy, can be a Weathers/Bray/Burton/Guardado late innings pen with competition for the middle/early roles among Maj, Coffey, Cout, McBeth, Salmon, Stanton, based on spring performance.

    6. Keep Weathers one more year. Guy is tremendous. If he declines, move him to middle relief. You'll never get equal value in a deal.

    7. Get another veteran starter. Next off-season, must get a third starter in a deal. Reds team has a lot of possibles for the pen, but the rotation is very weak after Har/Arroyo. I can live with Livingston or Belisle as a fifth starter (skipped occasionally). I can live with a youngster, likely Homer, as a fourth starter next year. But there must be another solid vet or the team goes no place.
    1. I'm still up in the air on Dunn. We all feel good about him after a walk off HR. But if we save his salary and use it wisely on other needs and Bruce pans out, maybe it's the right thing to do. Or maybe we accept his option for one more year then let him walk or trade him. Or maybe during next season he gets even better and we think about signing him long term.

    2. I'd love to trade Junior to the AL so he could become a DH/extend his career and so we could relieve ourselves of his contract.

    3. I am more inclined to trade Votto than EE. If you can trade Votto for good pitching, then do it. The reviews from triple A are not that great on Votto. Plus, I agree about this team already being overly lefthanded, with Hamilton and especially if you sign Dunn long term.

    4. Until he goes down the drain, Keppinger needs to play everyday somewhere.

    5. Agree. Decline Guardado's option and try and sign him to a low salary minor league deal with incentives.

    6. Agree. Keep Weathers. Doing a good job and should be somewhere in the bullpen and has done a good job as the closer this year. Seems like a good clubhouse guy, too.

    7. Agree. Need another starter to go with Harang and Arroyo. We can fill the last two spots with our farm system.
    Who's on first?

  5. #4
    part of BBN jmac's Avatar
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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by ChatterRed View Post

    3. I am more inclined to trade Votto than EE. If you can trade Votto for good pitching, then do it. The reviews from triple A are not that great on Votto. Plus, I agree about this team already being overly lefthanded, with Hamilton and especially if you sign Dunn long term.
    I have been more inclined to trade EE than Vottoo though the lefty thing is good point.
    What are the "not great" reviews you are talking about ?

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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    1. keep Dunn

    2. trade Griffey for pitching if possible and replace him with Bruce.
    I could care less if he hits #600 as a Red.

    3. no. keep Votto. the Reds need a steady influx of good cheap talent. position players seem to be more predictable than pitchers ( ie Votto is likely to pan out wheras Cueto could be the next John Smoltz or the next Brian Reith )

    4. I am not a fan of EE but I think Keppinger is great as a utility guy but the team is weaker if he is a starter. If we do trade EE we need a backup plan if Keppinger doesn't work,gets tired playing 162 games,etc.
    If the bench is guys like Keppinger/EE, Hat, Valentin, Cantu & Hopper then we have a very good bench ( compred to Castro,etc )

    5. yes

    6. yes

    7. #1 need for the Reds is a solid starter to go with Harang and Arroyo
    .

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    if we can get a high prospect top rated arm , yes trade Votto...otherwise you have to keep him...i agee with all the other points....try to sign Dunn...get rid of JR...ECT
    Reds fan since 1970

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    I see 2, 3 and 7 as trying for the same thing.

    However, in 2007 FA, outside of Silva, I don't see us trying to go after a Schilling for 1-2 years, not for the big bucks. Otherwise, you're overspending. MAYBE we go after a Freddy Garcia, hoping he recovers.

    I think the ONLY way we get young/semi-proven pitching is by trading young/semi-proven guys like EE/Votto. Griffey would be nice, but nobody's going to give up a prime prospect or proven guy to pick up $16.5M in salary for 2009. Like he alluded to, trading overpriced veterans for good young pitching isn't as easy as it says.

    I think we're better off picking up a veteran from somewhere else other than FA (i.e. more risk) for just a one-year stop-gap, and look for a FA SP in 2009 - when Griffey's contract comes off the books.

    As much as I'd hate to part with EE or Votto, if we could trade them to some theoretically over-staffed team - like we did with Wily Mo for Arroyo - then I say we go for it. Keppinger could replace EE to some extent, although we're risking EE possibly meeting his potential. Votto I'm less inclined to part with, but if we need a Better chip than EE for a Better SP, then I'd have to say let's go for it.

    IFF we could trade for pitching, and keep Dunn, then I'd be all for it. To me, that's the kind of guy you build a team around.

    Dunn, Hamilton, Bruce, Keppinger and a #3/#4 SP sounds better than a Freel/Hopper, Hamilton, Bruce, EE, Livingston/Belisle...

    PEACE

    -BLEEDS

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    Tell me what other first baseman are in the Reds system if you are going to trade Votto. I agree with Chi-town Red that you would need to receive a high prospect top rated arm to even consider trading him, and I would want a comparable first base prospect to take his place at first base to also come in the deal.

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post

    4. I am not a fan of EE but I think Keppinger is great as a utility guy but the team is weaker if he is a starter.
    Why are there so many people ready to put Keppinger on the bench? He's done nothing but rake the ball. He should be in our opening day starting lineup next year, without a doubt.

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    4. I am not a fan of EE but I think Keppinger is great as a utility guy but the team is weaker if he is a starter.

    Other than Mackanin, what is the other new consistent person since Narron got fired?

    Jeff Keppinger in the lineup. And imagine that the Reds have the best record in the NL since.

    But noooooo, the team is weaker if he is a starter. (sarcasm)
    Who's on first?

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by AmarilloRed View Post
    Tell me what other first baseman are in the Reds system if you are going to trade Votto. I agree with Chi-town Red that you would need to receive a high prospect top rated arm to even consider trading him, and I would want a comparable first base prospect to take his place at first base to also come in the deal.
    I look at it like this, would you rather have Votto or Cueto? I'd imagine they will be similarly rated prospects when all the rankings come out in the offseason. It's nothing against Votto but I think 1B is a much easier hole to fill than SP. So I'm taking the high-end arm if Votto could fetch him.

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    Re: Some Unpopular Idea - from the ORG

    If you get a Cueto back in the trade, I would be for trading Votto. Teams are very reluctant to trade good pitching arms however.


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