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Thread: Why is Norris disliked?

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    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Why is Norris disliked?

    I'm interested in the reasons for the hatred of Norris Hopper on this board. The guy has hit over .300 in around 200 or so at bats, he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths. What am I not getting here? Is the guy a future All Star? Probably not. But we can't appreciate a player like this? Just because he doesn't have five tool talent, or because Marty likes him, he has to be banished to the minors forever, or isn't entitled to starting a game or two? I truly, honestly, do not understand this. Please explain.

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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I'm interested in the reasons for the hatred of Norris Hopper on this board. The guy has hit over .300 in around 200 or so at bats, he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths. What am I not getting here? Is the guy a future All Star? Probably not. But we can't appreciate a player like this? Just because he doesn't have five tool talent, or because Marty likes him, he has to be banished to the minors forever, or isn't entitled to starting a game or two? I truly, honestly, do not understand this. Please explain.
    I dont think people here honestly dislike him as a player, at least I don't. But the reason why I don't like him in the lineup is because he is taking valuable AB's away from guys like Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton. That doesn't mean never start him. Also, when Marty thinks that Hopper should be a replacement for Dunn, you start to dislike Hopper a little bit thinking that Marty is a moron.

    Although Richy was very good for this team last year, I couldn't stand him. He was taking AB's away from EdE, which I didn't like at all. If he played SS, he had zero range...kind of like Kepp, but much worse.

    As far as Hopper making things happen on the base paths...he was Awful today. Tripped around 2nd. Got the worst jump stealing, so bad that he never should have continued and just killed a possible rally.

    I like Hops, just not as a full-time starter, and I think that is what people get upset about when they hear about playing him.

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    GO XAVIER! toledodan's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    i know i don't dislike hopper. i think he's earned a roster spot on the reds. i think most people including myself are upset that hamilton didn't start either game. ellison shouldn't be anything but a pinch runner or a defensive replacement. the fact he started a game and was a pinch hitter is BS. i had no problem with hopper starting both games but some of the other moves left alot to be desired.
    there's nothing like bowling a 300 game! 13 now and retired.


    Ricky henderson has a higher OBP than C. patterson and he's retired. C. Trent 6-14-2008

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    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    I understand and respect your viewpoint. But that isn't the viewpoint of many around here. I can understand if he's taking at bats away consistently from our big three, but the fact is Griffey needs days off every now and then. And judging from his past August and September's, it's not a bad idea for Dunn either.

    I don't want Hopper starting on this team. But I like him, and I think he can help us in the future. And I'm afraid that if we do trade Dunn or let him walk, Hopper will be the scapegoat (unfairly), and that won't be good for him or the team.

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    Bread Gloves Razor Shines's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I understand and respect your viewpoint. But that isn't the viewpoint of many around here. I can understand if he's taking at bats away consistently from our big three, but the fact is Griffey needs days off every now and then. And judging from his past August and September's, it's not a bad idea for Dunn either.

    I don't want Hopper starting on this team. But I like him, and I think he can help us in the future. And I'm afraid that if we do trade Dunn or let him walk, Hopper will be the scapegoat (unfairly), and that won't be good for him or the team.
    I honestly haven't read where anyone on here said that Hopper shouldn't be on the major league roster or should not ever start.

    I think most (including me) see him as a spot starter and should not be in a straight platoon with Hamilton. But it seems to me as if your making an argument against a viewpoint that doesn't really exist. IMHO.

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    GO XAVIER! toledodan's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I understand and respect your viewpoint. But that isn't the viewpoint of many around here. I can understand if he's taking at bats away consistently from our big three, but the fact is Griffey needs days off every now and then. And judging from his past August and September's, it's not a bad idea for Dunn either.

    I don't want Hopper starting on this team. But I like him, and I think he can help us in the future. And I'm afraid that if we do trade Dunn or let him walk, Hopper will be the scapegoat (unfairly), and that won't be good for him or the team.

    if we trade dunn or let him walk it won't be for giving norris hopper a starting job. it will be a spot for "the boss" jay bruce to play everyday next season.
    there's nothing like bowling a 300 game! 13 now and retired.


    Ricky henderson has a higher OBP than C. patterson and he's retired. C. Trent 6-14-2008

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    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    I honestly haven't read where anyone on here said that Hopper shouldn't be on the major league roster or should not ever start.

    I think most (including me) see him as a spot starter and should not be in a straight platoon with Hamilton. But it seems to me as if your making an argument against a viewpoint that doesn't really exist. IMHO.
    I just read a post tonight where someone stated that Hopper would be in the minors of any other organization, but he's starting for us.

    And I agree with your viewpoint, he should only be a spot starter. But a lot of what I've read around here focuses on what he's NOT (Adam Dunn). Guys like Marty have called him a "winning" player, and that's irked many on this board. That then leads to talk of him being a pure "singles" hitter, and so on and so on, to where it's nothing but negative talk about him.

    IMHO, many people around here see him as Dunn's "replacement," and instead of directing that anger towards Hopper, it should be instead directed towards the FO (if that indeed ends up happening... lets hope not).

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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    I'm interested in the reasons for the hatred of Norris Hopper on this board. The guy has hit over .300 in around 200 or so at bats, he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths. What am I not getting here? Is the guy a future All Star? Probably not. But we can't appreciate a player like this? Just because he doesn't have five tool talent, or because Marty likes him, he has to be banished to the minors forever, or isn't entitled to starting a game or two? I truly, honestly, do not understand this. Please explain.
    I'm not sure I know anybody who dislikes Norris Hopper. I know I don't dislike Norris Hopper.

    But the interesting trait with Norris Hopper is he represents an entity that's generally overvalued, and when a player becomes overvalued by an organization then that organization generally utilizes that player in a manner that costs their team runs over the long haul.

    Hopper does things that casual fans like. He hustles, he runs fast, he makes contact, he'll hit for a decent batting average, and he generally gives off the perception that he's busting his tail all the time. All those things are good to have in a player on your team. There's nothing wrong with those traits. The problem is since he has zero power and rarely walks, his overall offensive game involves making too many outs and not acquiring enough bases, and that total offensive package Hopper possesses is actually much less impressive than most fans believe. The actual run value of his contributions aren't near high enough to justify a significant portion of playing time, and they're also typically not near high enough to be worth what most casual fans believe they're worth.

    Stick a player like Hopper in your starting lineup once a week near the bottom of your order, and you're using him in a way that helps the team. Stick him in your starting lineup three or four times a week, especially at the top of the lineup, and you're overvaluing him to the point of hurting your team due to his limited overall value.
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    Baseball card addict MrCinatit's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    I like Norris Hopper quite a bit - as a bench player. I think, in fact, he would be a very valuable bench player.
    Unfortunately, this team has shown recently to overvalue bench players, and attempt to turn them into every day players. They they go from being valuable bench players to mediocre starting players. Unfortunately, I am seeing a similar trend at this point with Hopper.

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    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Playing Hopper is like buying a 83 Volkswagen, and converting it to run on french fry oil, when you have a Shelby Mustang sitting in the garage. You aren't going to be turning any heads, or winning any races off the line, but you tell yourself you will feel good about it, even when you have to siphon french fry oil out of a vat and you end up with a mouthful.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths.
    This season he's gotten caught stealing nearly as many times as he's successfully stolen a base.

    By "things" I would say, "Outs."
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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    Because players like him get "labelled" in the minors as never going to be "every day players". And that can be a drag on a player as far as ever getting a serious look-see and/or valid shot at the ML level.

    No, he probably isn't the calibre of athlete that could evolve into an everyday player. But players of his type do have worth on the bench, and he could very well become a super-sub (so to speak).

    I'd rather have this kid on my bench then some of the dregs we have seen. That's why I'm not too upset over players recently acquired like Ellison and Cantu. Low risk acquistions as bench support.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    I think NoHo will be a Freel replacement. Not a bad guy to have on your bench.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    I like Norris; he's a good fill in guy, a great guy to have on the bench. And he's a great story, too. It's easy for me to root for a guy like Norris Hopper.

    Good bunter (!) bad on the basepaths (!) What I haven't figured out yet is if Norris keeps bunting because no one has figured out how to defense it, or if he bunts that much because he can't hit. Either way, it's working. And he was 6-9 last night, a soft 6-9, but still, it's better than the numbers that...I don;t know....say.....Jason Ellison put up last night.

    What I dislike, as many others here do, is when folks look at his batting average, and nothing else, and decide he needs to be a starter.

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    Re: Why is Norris disliked?

    I guess I like Hopper more than most posters. I think he should start against all lefties.

    This year, against lefties, his BA is .359 and his OBP is .385. He is an effective table setter, particularly against left handed pitching. True, he doesn't walk that much or his OBP would be .400 plus against lefties. But it's still pretty good, and he adds speed as well.

    One area of weakness for the Reds is relatively high OBP guys to get on base for the sluggers. Hopper is one of the few who fills this role adequately.

    When righties start against the Reds, Hopper should be on the bench. But as the time is currently configured, he starts against lefties.


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