Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 38

Thread: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

  1. #1
    Manliness Personified HumnHilghtFreel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,690

    Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    While watching the game tonight, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's a Braves fan. I let it be known that(and I may just be a TAD bit biased) that I think Harang is a top 5 starter in the NL. He said he was in the bottom half of his top 20. He's a pretty knowledgeable baseball fan though, so I got to wondering if it's just the lack of hype that Aaron gets in the national media that leads to him getting so little respect.

    The top 5 may be a reach when looking at raw stats, but after considering that Harang is so incredibly consistent while pitching in an extreme hitters park, it tips the scale in his favor over other pitchers.

    Currently my list would probably read

    Peavy
    Young
    Webb
    Penny
    Harang/Smoltz/Hudson

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    6,245

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Peavy
    Webb
    Harang
    Penny
    Hamels
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  4. #3
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    25,085

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    That looks close to right, your list. I'd drop Young down a peg or two because he's missed time and he's helped much more than his teammate Peavy by his home park.

    It's pretty much Peavy and Webb. Then the second tier which includes Harang and the others you listed.

  5. #4
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,314

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    I'd take Harang over Penny.

  6. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio
    Posts
    2,729

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    wish we could find two more like him! (one a lefty)

  7. #6
    Member VR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Vancouver, Wa
    Posts
    8,591

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Peavy has clearly looked the best...but it's a toss up on the others.

    The good news...the Reds have a front of the rotation horse locked up with a decent contract.

    It's really about finding two starters for next year, and one power bullpen arm.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

  8. #7
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,284

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Tier 1 (random order grab bag): Jake Peavy, Brandon Webb and Roy Oswalt

    Tier 2 (random order grab bag): Aaron Harang, Brad Penny, Chris Young, Cole Hamels, Carlos Zambrano, John Smoltz, and Tim Hudson

    I may be forgetting somebody, but that's the way I see it right now. The Tier 2 grab bag is a random order; I'm not necessarily sure Harang's at the top, but he's not at the bottom either.

    If Chris Carpenter was healthy, he'd probably be somewhere in the Tier 2 grab bag too.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  9. #8
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    The Commonwealth
    Posts
    8,392

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    I'm not far off Cyclones list, I'd drop Oswalt into that second bag.

    Peavy, Webb, and everyone else.

    Championships for MY teams in my lifetime:
    Cincinnati Reds - 75, 76, 90
    Chicago Blackhawks - 10, 13
    University of Kentucky - 78, 96, 98, 12
    Cincinnati Bengals - None
    Chicago Bulls - 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98

  10. #9
    Member Spitball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    5,627

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    I'm not far off Cyclones list, I'd drop Oswalt into that second bag.
    Put a healthy Oswalt on the Padres in that ballpark and there would not be a better pitcher in baseball. For the purpose of watching mechanics, Oswalt is a joy to watch pitch.

    Btw, Oswalt is pretty struggling through much the same kind of season Peavy had last year.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  11. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,849

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    For those saying Penny over Harang, what is your basis for this? Penny has given up 17 less HRs (a total of FIVE on the season) and has an ERA that going into tonight was almost a full run lower than Harang's. Penny's record is 14-4 for the season in a similar amount of innings pitched. Harang does have considerably more strikeouts, though. Penny also has a career ERA that is lower than Harang's as well. I do love Harang though.

    Here are a few interesting stats. Harang is off to the best start for a Reds pitcher since Tom Seaver in 1981 (who started off 14-2). Harang has 6 more starts left which means he has a shot at being a 20 game winner (though he has no margin for error). Harang also has the best winning % of any starting pitcher. And to think 1 of those losses was related to the back spasms...maybe he would've won that game otherwise.
    Last edited by fearofpopvol1; 08-30-2007 at 12:11 AM.

  12. #11
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,284

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    For those saying Penny over Harang, what is your basis for this? Penny has given up 17 less HRs (a total of FIVE on the season) and has an ERA that going into tonight was almost a full run lower than Harang's. Penny's record is 14-4 for the season in a similar amount of innings pitched. Harang does have considerably more strikeouts, though. Penny also has a career ERA that is lower than Harang's as well. I do love Harang though.
    I'm assuming you mean for those saying Harang over Penny ...

    I didn't necessarily rank one over the other in my previous post, but I'll dig into a bit now. In 2007 alone, Brad Penny's been a better pitcher than Harang. That's pretty much a given so far, though it could change with a month remaining (and Harang's outstanding start tonight compared with Penny's lousy start today closed that gap considerably).

    But I didn't just consider this current season. How about the last three seasons since 2005? Check this out ...
    • Harang has a 125 ERA+ compared to Penny's 117 ERA+
    • Harang has 636 total innings compared to Penny's 542.1 total innings (this is huge)
    • Harang has a 7.83 K/9 compared to Penny's 6.51 K/9
    • Harang has a 2.14 BB/9 compared to Penny's 2.61 BB/9
    • Harang has a 3.66 K/BB compared to Penny's 2.50 K/BB
    • Penny has a 0.68 HR/9 compared to Harang's 1.02 HR/9

    Since the beginning of 2005, Aaron Harang has pitched 93.2 more innings than Brad Penny (that's significant), and Harang has posted an ERA+ considerably higher than Penny. Harang also has a considerably better strikeout rate and K/BB rate, and he has a slight advantage in walk rate.

    Penny's home run rate is better than Harang's since 2005, but that's the only key area where Penny has the advantage.

    Since the beginning of 2005, Aaron Harang has been a better pitcher than Brad Penny, and it's really not that close considering the innings pitched gap.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  13. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,849

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    I'm assuming you mean for those saying Harang over Penny ...

    I didn't necessarily rank one over the other in my previous post, but I'll dig into a bit now. In 2007 alone, Brad Penny's been a better pitcher than Harang. That's pretty much a given so far, though it could change with a month remaining (and Harang's outstanding start tonight compared with Penny's lousy start today closed that gap considerably).

    But I didn't just consider this current season. How about the last three seasons since 2005? Check this out ...
    • Harang has a 125 ERA+ compared to Penny's 117 ERA+
    • Harang has 636 total innings compared to Penny's 542.1 total innings (this is huge)
    • Harang has a 7.83 K/9 compared to Penny's 6.51 K/9
    • Harang has a 2.14 BB/9 compared to Penny's 2.61 BB/9
    • Harang has a 3.66 K/BB compared to Penny's 2.50 K/BB
    • Penny has a 0.68 HR/9 compared to Harang's 1.02 HR/9

    Since the beginning of 2005, Aaron Harang has pitched 93.2 more innings than Brad Penny (that's significant), and Harang has posted an ERA+ considerably higher than Penny. Harang also has a considerably better strikeout rate and K/BB rate, and he has a slight advantage in walk rate.

    Penny's home run rate is better than Harang's since 2005, but that's the only key area where Penny has the advantage.

    Since the beginning of 2005, Aaron Harang has been a better pitcher than Brad Penny, and it's really not that close considering the innings pitched gap.
    Yes, you are correct...those for Harang over Penny.

    This is a good analysis and I think you make a good case, but bear in mind that my focal points were "this season" and "career," not since 2005. Either way, I appreciate the post.

  14. #13
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,284

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Yes, you are correct...those for Harang over Penny.

    This is a good analysis and I think you make a good case, but bear in mind that my focal points were "this season" and "career," not since 2005. Either way, I appreciate the post.
    I'm more interested in the last two, three, or four seasons to try to determine who the best pitchers in the league are right now. One season isn't a large enough sample, but two to four seasons is a good sample to use for the present.

    As for their careers ... Harang and Penny each have a 109 ERA+ for their careers. That's a complete wash right there in that respect.

    Penny came up at a much younger age than Harang, and that's why Penny has more career innings and more career value so far. Penny was a regular starter at the age of 22 whereas Harang wasn't a regular starter until the age of 26. So yes, if you're factoring entire career value into the equation, then Penny has more value.

    Then again, if a pitcher's entire career is being factored into this, then Greg Maddux wins the debate hands down.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  15. #14
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Santa Paula, CA
    Posts
    6,536

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    How come nobody brought up WHIP? I thought that was a very important measure.

    The HR thing is a park affected wash.
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  16. #15
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    6,284

    Re: Where do you think Harang ranks among NL starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    The HR thing is a park affected wash.
    Good point about the HR rates. Here's Harang and Penny's home run rates on the road since 2005 ...

    Harang: 31 home runs in 331 innings (0.84 HR/9)
    Penny: 20 home runs in 250.2 innings (0.72 HR/9)

    That's quite a bit closer than their overall numbers which include Harang's GABP starts.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25