Turn Off Ads?
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Can They Learn?

  1. #1
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,284

    Can They Learn?

    I wasn't sure what to name this thread, but here's my question. The Reds have over the last two years accumulated quite a number of young pitchers either here or in the minors.

    Currently on the ML roster, the pitchers under the age of thirty are

    Bray, Burton, Coutlangus, Belisle, Majewski, Harrang & Gosling.

    At Louisville, every pitcher except Victor Santos and Ricky Stone (neither of whom are prospects) are under the age of thirty. Among those who have been with the big club this year are:

    Coffey, Dumatrait, Ramierez, McBeth, Saarloos, Salmon & Bailey (DL).

    Not with the Reds at all this year: Pelland, Maloney & Gardner.

    Some of these pitchers have had uneven years, in fact, most have. The reason for my thread title "Can They Learn?" (or perhaps "Can They Be Taught?") is that I wonder what the Reds can do to step up the learning curve.

    Many of these pitchers have some very raw talent. Some here would argue that quite a few have reached their pinnacle and can get no better. I'm not sure I buy that, but the critical question again, in my mind, is how do we teach these pitchers to be better, smarter, get the most out of the talent they do have.

    I'm sure those who know baseball history can speak of pitchers from years past who started with fairly pedestrian stuff and ultimately developed good, productive careers. Perhaps some that means moving to the bullpen, others becoming more effective starters.

    One former player that comes to mind is Tommy Hume who started out both starting and relieving. He had some horrific times, even to the point of acquiring the nickname "Boom Boom Hume". He was never stellar, but in the middle of his career he wasn't too bad a pitcher.

    Two other Reds who come to mind, who developed once pretty decent careers once they arrived in Cincinnati (albeit on the BRM teams) were Fred Norman & Jack Billingham.

    I'd like to hear about others, but more so, I'd like to hear what the Reds need to do to kick these pitchers up a notch, as Emeril would say.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,688

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Acquiring as many young arms as they can, emphasizing development, is the only feasible route for this team (and many others). Some are gonna be misses, and you hope you can get some hits. But looking at what may be available in this year's FA crop, which looks worst then last off-season's, it's the most logical (and sensible) route they should take.

    You would love to get some high level talent so you're not waiting around as long for them to develop in your farm system; but it seems GMs aren't so easily letting those prospects go anymore. And wisely so.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  4. #3
    Haunted by walks
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    6,732

    Re: Can They Learn?

    I've asked this before, and I'm still trying to figure it out. We talk a lot about guys who start out as throwers who eventually learn to pitch. But I've always wondered, what is it that they have to learn, and why isn't it in a book or in a catcher's head that can be conveyed to young pitchers quickly and efficiently? Are these young pitchers who haven't learned to pitch shaking off lots of pitches on the mound? Why hasn't the catcher "learned to pitch" after all this time?

  5. #4
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,281

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    I've asked this before, and I'm still trying to figure it out. We talk a lot about guys who start out as throwers who eventually learn to pitch. But I've always wondered, what is it that they have to learn, and why isn't it in a book or in a catcher's head that can be conveyed to young pitchers quickly and efficiently? Are these young pitchers who haven't learned to pitch shaking off lots of pitches on the mound? Why hasn't the catcher "learned to pitch" after all this time?

    Guys come up blowing guys away at each level, once they get to the bigs they have to learn that that approach isn't a 100% return approach, hence learn the weakness of certain types of pitchers, learn the parks big areas and try and get the ball in that area, learn their mistakes and exploit them.

    Catchers can help, but the pitcher is the guy holding the ball, Ed Bailey used to intimidate the younger pitchers on the Reds and it was not a good thing.

    Like everything else in this game it's a learning process, but one tied to health and the ability to adapt.

  6. #5
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,284

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Guys come up blowing guys away at each level, once they get to the bigs they have to learn that that approach isn't a 100% return approach, hence learn the weakness of certain types of pitchers, learn the parks big areas and try and get the ball in that area, learn their mistakes and exploit them.

    Catchers can help, but the pitcher is the guy holding the ball, Ed Bailey used to intimidate the younger pitchers on the Reds and it was not a good thing.

    Like everything else in this game it's a learning process, but one tied to health and the ability to adapt.
    WOY, this is what I'm talking about though. Aside from the pitching coach at each level, might we not benefit from having a general pitching instructor or such. I know we have some roving guys, but I'd like to see if there's a way to move these guys up and learn to be better pitchers.

  7. #6
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,549

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Burton certainly has learned. I remember his first outing he was so nervous he couldn't throw strikes. Now he's the #1 setup man. Not bad for a Rule 5 guy.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  8. #7
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Savannah, TN
    Posts
    2,912

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Burton certainly has learned. I remember his first outing he was so nervous he couldn't throw strikes. Now he's the #1 setup man. Not bad for a Rule 5 guy.
    Notice our #1 starter and what is or will soon be our best reliever all came from Oakland and not from our farm system.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  9. #8
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,284

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Of the names I mentioned above, the following have been acquired via trade, waivers or Rule V:

    Bray
    Majewski
    (granted controversial trade)

    Burton (rule V)

    Coutlangus
    Livingston (forgot him in my first post, we'll cross our fingers that he's not done)
    McBeth
    Saarloos
    Maloney

    All have been acquired in the last two seasons. On top of that are the core of young pitchers we've already had.

  10. #9
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,284

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    Notice our #1 starter and what is or will soon be our best reliever all came from Oakland and not from our farm system.
    You're right. Actually the only home grown pitchers on this list, whether with the Reds this season or with AAA are Coffey, Salmon and Bailey. Everyone else started somewhere else even though some have been in our system for a while.

    I think Chattanooga might have a lot of Reds drafted or signed players.

  11. #10
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,284

    Re: Can They Learn?

    So with the shake-up today of some of the minor league operations, I thought I'd resurrect this thread, particularly in light of this comment from Team Clark in the Dumatrait thread

    I hate to tell you this but just because you are in an organization doesn't mean you are 1) being coached 2) being coached by someone who knows what they are talking about or 3) being coached by someone who actually gives a hoot. There are A LOT of Reds minor leaguers who in simple terms are just hung out to dry
    So can the Reds hire some folks who can begin teaching some of these young arms to be effective major league pitchers. It seems like we have some raw talent, but they're not developing to their potential. Any thoughts?

  12. #11
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,920

    Re: Can They Learn?

    While Harang was drafted by the A's, he became a different pitcher with the Reds. The improvement he has made since coming over is due to him and the Reds.

  13. #12
    Member Topcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1,934

    Re: Can They Learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    While Harang was drafted by the A's, he became a different pitcher with the Reds. The improvement he has made since coming over is due to him and the Reds.
    Well it can be in spite of the Red's can't it ?
    2006 Redzone mock Draftee's- 1(st) Daniel Bard(redsox), 1(st sup)( Jordan Walden (Angels), 2(nd) rd.- Zach Britton(Orioles), 3(rd) Blair Erickson(Cardinals), 3(rd) Tim Norton( Yankees),(cuz its a Tim Hortons thing

    Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory... lasts forever.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25