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Thread: Pitching, pitching, pitching

  1. #1
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Pitching, pitching, pitching

    I think we all know that what the Reds ballclub lacks and has lacked for years is pitching, both starting and relieving. What pitchers would you look to acquire this upcoming offseason if you are Wayne Krivsky?

    For the sake of realism try and look for guys who are free agents, guys who are part of a surplus on a team, guys who have not lived up to their current team's expectations, or guys stuck in the minors who deserve a shot.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    It would almost certainly have to be someone in a trade, the FA market for starting pitchers has gone haywire.

    The Red Sox seem overloaded with starters
    Go Gators!

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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    It would almost certainly have to be someone in a trade, the FA market for starting pitchers has gone haywire.

    The Red Sox seem overloaded with starters
    Wayne seemed to do pretty well last time he helped them out with their glut. The truth of the matter is unless the Reds sacrifice some offense via a trade, they will not get any pitching this off season. Their only hope is the continued development of the revamped farm system, which will take until 2009 to really affect the majors.

    I have a sneaking suspicion the Reds will continue to tread water until the 2008 offseason, which, coupled with some rising stars, the Reds will make some free agent splashes to restock the team ala the Indians when they picked up Millwood and then Byrd. This might make some upset next year, but I see enough of a light at the end of the tunnel with watching this current team to remain patient, at least for one more year.
    "I'm a Cucumber, I'm a cucumber. I'm a cucumber, I'm a cucumber. I'm a cucumber, I'm a cucumber. Please don't send me to the pickle farm, bum." - Brak

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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I think we all know that what the Reds ballclub lacks and has lacked for years is pitching, both starting and relieving. What pitchers would you look to acquire this upcoming offseason if you are Wayne Krivsky?

    For the sake of realism try and look for guys who are free agents, guys who are part of a surplus on a team, guys who have not lived up to their current team's expectations, or guys stuck in the minors who deserve a shot.
    Quick list. Some will cost more than others.

    Daniel Cabrera - Disappointment in Balt
    Brian Bruney - Closer potential had a bad year in NY and has been passed by all the young studs. Should be cheap.
    Kevin Slowey - Have Depth, Need Hitting
    Michael Wuertz - Lost in the Shuffle, Could close here
    Juan Cruz - Never gets a role with a shot
    Jonathan Meloan - LA up and comer at a loaded spot. LA Needs Bats.
    Kevin Corriea - Could start but still useful in the pen if he fails
    Renyel Pinto - Looking for lightning in a bottle here.
    Aaron Heilman - Wants To Start, Mets won't do it and he could ask out.
    Luis Ayala - 8th Inning possibility coming back from TJ and should be better in 2008.
    Frank Francisco - See Ayala
    Brian Fuentes - Corpas emergence will have Col shopping him.
    Jair Jurjens - Detroit is loaded.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Unless Cincy commits to young pitching through the draft and international markets, their staff will likely always blow. The affordable pitchers will not get this team to where they need to be.

    Wayne is like the guy who goes Christmas shopping on December 26th to save money and tells his kids that Santa came a few days late. Except December 25th is the winter meetings and we are his kids.

    Next year, expect Kent Mercker and Brian Bruney under the tree on the morning of the 27th.

  7. #6
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Unless Cincy commits to young pitching through the draft and international markets, their staff will likely always blow. The affordable pitchers will not get this team to where they need to be.

    Wayne is like the guy who goes Christmas shopping on December 26th to save money and tells his kids that Santa came a few days late. Except December 25th is the winter meetings and we are his kids.

    Next year, expect Kent Mercker and Brian Bruney under the tree on the morning of the 27th.
    As I commented in the game thread, the difference between the Reds and the Cardinals is good decisions. Ankiel? Luck? Franklin? Luck? I could go on. They spend some money and do it wisely. They get results. We tie our wagon to Mike Stanton and Eddie Guardado. They trade for pitchers with an upside and have Dave Duncan to help improve their craft. We get Majewski, Stanton, and Saarloos and Dick Pole...well, who knows how good he is?

    Krivsky has made some good decisions, but Phillips and Arroyo are not enough. You need pitching and that doesn't mean throwing whatever is cheap up against the wall to see if it sticks. Yes, the situation was bad before, but it doesn't seem to be getting much better and every day that Mike Stanton, Eddie Guradado, and a host of others stay on the roster is one more day the Reds will not really compete.

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    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Unless Cincy commits to young pitching through the draft and international markets, their staff will likely always blow. The affordable pitchers will not get this team to where they need to be.

    Wayne is like the guy who goes Christmas shopping on December 26th to save money and tells his kids that Santa came a few days late. Except December 25th is the winter meetings and we are his kids.

    Next year, expect Kent Mercker and Brian Bruney under the tree on the morning of the 27th.
    I'm not really sure that I agree with this post. Wayne has made a lot of moves (who has made more than him since he took over?) And most of these moves have turned out to be good ones. I don't know of any free agent last year that I was for him signing and I don't remember any pitchers available via trade last winter that would have made a huge difference. Young quality pitching rarely gets traded. I personally have no desire to see the Reds give contracts out like the Cubs did last year to players that in my opinion will help this team very little.

    I will agree that international scouting and the farm system is where we must find our pitching. Time is what we have to give WayneK. That is something that few GMs get.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    I'm not really sure that I agree with this post. Wayne has made a lot of moves (who has made more than him since he took over?) And most of these moves have turned out to be good ones. I don't know of any free agent last year that I was for him signing and I don't remember any pitchers available via trade last winter that would have made a huge difference. Young quality pitching rarely gets traded. I personally have no desire to see the Reds give contracts out like the Cubs did last year to players that in my opinion will help this team very little.

    I will agree that international scouting and the farm system is where we must find our pitching. Time is what we have to give WayneK. That is something that few GMs get.
    Wayne has made a lot of moves, and MOST have been good ones? Come on...I know he's had a few winners, but for every Hamilton there's a Yan, Mays and Lohse. For every Phillips, there's a Stanton, Majewski and Kim. Let's not get too excited.

    But Wayne has had close to two full seasons and two drafts, and I have not seen a true direction towards pitching in the amateur ranks. They had shots at some top notch pitchers in those drafts and instead went for position players. Not exactly what you need to do if you want to get stronger in the pitching realm.

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    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    But Wayne has had close to two full seasons and two drafts, and I have not seen a true direction towards pitching in the amateur ranks. They had shots at some top notch pitchers in those drafts and instead went for position players. Not exactly what you need to do if you want to get stronger in the pitching realm.
    I disagree, he's acquired Smit, Maloney, McBeth, Thompson, Burton, Coutlangus via trade/rule 5 and 55 of his 103 draft picks were pitchers. Out of those 55, 11 were picked in the first 10 rounds. 34 of them have signed.

    So basically half of his draft picks have been pitchers.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    I disagree, he's acquired Smit, Maloney, McBeth, Thompson, Burton, Coutlangus via trade/rule 5 and 55 of his 103 draft picks were pitchers. Out of those 55, 11 were picked in the first 10 rounds. 34 of them have signed.

    So basically half of his draft picks have been pitchers.
    Half his picks? Wonderful. Let me know how many we should be truly excited about. I'm not sure if there are any right now. Everyone was already ordering their Watson jerseys in May...now no one wants to even bring his name up since he moved up to High A.

    Most of the other names you threw out there, I'm not overly impressed with. Smit is pitching better mostly b/c he was dropped a class. Look at what he was doing before he was cut loose. Maloney looks good. McBeth was the second coming before he got beaten back to Louisville. Thompson is a ways off. Burton needs to walk less, but he has looked solid. The same for Couter. Relievers can't have walk rates like those two and be successful over a long period of time.

    Drew Stubbs over Tim Lincecum. Sean Watson over Brett Anderson. Devin Mesoraco over Rick Porcello.

    Reverse those three and the future of the Cincinnati pitching would look a hell of a lot brighter. And money definitely had something to do with 2 out of the three selections. Anderson was projected to go 1st round and went a few picks after Watson for $300k more. Porcello's money was Stanton + Mesoraco.

    If they want to really get some top pitching, they're gonna have to pay. Whether it's $50 million to a FA, a $2 million bonus to some 17 year old from the Dominican or over slot money to a draft pick, it has to happen. But if they want to piss away millions on mediocre pitchers like Lohse and Stanton, then they're not going to get to where they need to be.
    Last edited by edabbs44; 09-01-2007 at 03:48 PM.

  12. #11
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Everyone was already ordering their Watson jerseys in May...now no one wants to even bring his name up since he moved up to High A.
    Nope, can't have any setbacks, development. All progress must be forward and fast!

    Smit is pitching better mostly b/c he was dropped a class. Look at what he was doing before he was cut loose.
    And that's wrong, because?

    McBeth was the second coming before he got beaten back to Louisville.
    And he's been pretty good down there, hasn't he?

    Thompson is a ways off.
    And?

    Drew Stubbs over Tim Lincecum. Sean Watson over Brett Anderson. Devin Mesoraco over Rick Porcello.
    So? Lots of teams passed over those players.

    Reverse those three and the future of the Cincinnati pitching would look a hell of a lot brighter.
    Maybe. I think its brighter than it was in early February, 2006.

    Regarding all this. I don't care if it takes a season or two for advancement. Your exact statement was:

    I have not seen a true direction towards pitching in the amateur ranks
    Well, I do. There _is_ improvement. There is deeper pitching lower down in the organization.

    It might not be _as good_ as you want and it might not have _as high_ a ceiling as you want and it might not be here _as soon_ as you want but it is an improvement over what we had before.

    Dan-O and Jimbo's _top picks_ may've been flashier than Wayne's but I'd rather have a team of average pitchers than one stud and 4 cruds.

    If they want to really get some top pitching, they're gonna have to pay. Whether it's $50 million to a FA, a $2 million bonus to some 17 year old from the Dominican or over slot money to a draft pick, it has to happen.
    Great. Who?

    Now that Zambrano's locked up we're down to stems and seeds in the FA market.

    Kyle Lohse will look like a bargain this offseason.

    If he's your 5th starter though, I'd say you're in pretty good shape.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  13. #12
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    Great. Who?

    Now that Zambrano's locked up we're down to stems and seeds in the FA market.

    Kyle Lohse will look like a bargain this offseason.

    If he's your 5th starter though, I'd say you're in pretty good shape.
    I think that was last off-season's rallying cry, if I'm not mistaken.

    You ask who? That's Wayne's job. If he can't find pitching, then he should find a new job.

  14. #13
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I think that was last off-season's rallying cry, if I'm not mistaken.
    No chance of it being true, eh?

    You ask who? That's Wayne's job. If he can't find pitching, then he should find a new job.
    It would make your argument more convincing if you told us which arms you thought he should go after. At the very least, it would be more stimulating than the constant Welly-donning spleen vent that occurs at the mere suggestion Wayne is doing an "OK" job.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    No chance of it being true, eh?
    It didn't work out this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    It would make your argument more convincing if you told us which arms you thought he should go after. At the very least, it would be more stimulating than the constant Welly-donning spleen vent that occurs at the mere suggestion Wayne is doing an "OK" job.
    I remember this past off-season's hysterics when Lilly and Meche were signed. Their sub-4.00 ERAs would have slotted in nicely.

    I've already said that I would have been all for Lincecum, Anderson and Porcello in the past 2 drafts.

    But for me to say who he should "go after" is a little much to ask. I don't know who is available. I don't know who he has a shot at getting. I've been dying for him to make a move for Scott Baker after he was getting abused last season. No clue if he was ever available. But he seems to be putting it together. I wish he was putting it together in Cincy.

    You look at a weak potential FA market for pitching and now Wayne has his pat excuse: "There's no one out there." If the market was strong, the pat excuse changes to: "The market is crazy. No way can Wayne afford anyone." Someone who is pro-Wayne needs to tell me how they expect him to acquire enough pitching to compete. I only hear excuses.

    Let me ask you this. If a large corporation starts to go under, does the CEO ask it's investors "Well, what do you want me to do? Labor in China is getting more expensive and the price of supplies is going through the roof. Maybe next year?" Absolutely not. The investors basically either bail on the corporation or they demand new leadership.

    That's why I think the whole "Well, who do you want Wayne to get?" argument is weak. I want him to get effective pitching. If he can't, get rid of him and find someone who can. He was hired to make the team a winner. It's his job.
    Last edited by edabbs44; 09-02-2007 at 10:04 AM.

  16. #15
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Pitching, pitching, pitching

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    It didn't work out this year.
    That there was a poor free agent market last year didn't work out for the Reds this year?

    That doesn't make sense.

    I remember this past off-season's hysterics when Lilly and Meche were signed. Their sub-4.00 ERAs would have slotted in nicely.
    Not by me. Of course, in hindsight, they look like great signings when comparing this year to their previous seasons.

    I've already said that I would have been all for Lincecum, Anderson and Porcello in the past 2 drafts.
    OK, got it!

    But for me to say who he should "go after" is a little much to ask. I don't know who is available. I don't know who he has a shot at getting. I've been dying for him to make a move for Scott Baker after he was getting abused last season. No clue if he was ever available. But he seems to be putting it together. I wish he was putting it together in Cincy.
    Then we could hear the "Wayne is married to the Twins" chorus in a command performance!

    You can look at the FA list and see if there are any guys you'd like to have here.

    Jeremy Affeldt, Carlos Silva, Joel Piniero, a certain Kyle Lohse...those are the kind of dudes on that list.

    Or take a chance on Kerry Wood? Kris Benson, Matt Clement?

    You look at a weak potential FA market for pitching and now Wayne has his pat excuse: "There's no one out there." If the market was strong, the pat excuse changes to: "The market is crazy. No way can Wayne afford anyone."
    More like "pat hyperbole."

    Someone who is pro-Wayne needs to tell me how they expect him to acquire enough pitching to compete. I only hear excuses.
    I think he deserves more than a year and half to implement his plan. But I think he'll acquire it via trade. One of Dunn/Griffey/Votto/ and perhaps EE/AGon. Maybe one of those guys will get you Scott Baker. Maybe he'll sign a FA. Maybe he'll get rid of some of the BP chaff.

    That's why I think the whole "Well, who do you want Wayne to get?" argument is weak. I want him to get effective pitching. If he can't, get rid of him and find someone who can. He was hired to make the team a winner. It's his job.
    Its not an argument. It makes for much better discussion than "Wayne sucks, he hasn't made this ocean liner turn on dime."

    It takes more than a single offseason and two drafts to turn a team around, even for the A's and Tigers.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"


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