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Thread: Why no Bruce??

  1. #61
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    It's not meant to be a comparison of the value of Biggio's play versus the value of Griffey's play. It's meant to be a question of, does ownership allow the milestone to take priority over doing what's best for the ballclub. In Griffey's case, "what's best for the ballclub" might be keeping him or might be trading him, we don't know right now. But if trading Griffey was not even allowed to be discussed because #600 hadn't been hit yet, then that's what I'm getting at.
    Ah, my bad. We're in violent agreement then.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #62
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Ah, my bad. We're in violent agreement then.
    Re-reading my original post, my comments on Griffey did sound like I considered him a drag on the ballclub. Wasn't my intent, but it's not your fault for reading what I actually wrote.
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  4. #63
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Junior has been the 2nd most productive offensive player on the Reds and has at least another couple years left in the tank making positive contributions, milestone or not.
    The tough item on Krivsky's to-do list is to convince other teams that this is true (which I think it is) and get something of equivalent value back in a trade.

    I agree with the 600 HRs comments... it's a great milestone and in a perfect world, I'd like Junior to be a Red when he does it. But don't harm the franchise long-term in exchange for a week-long Junior love-fest.

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  5. #64
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    The tough item on Krivsky's to-do list is to convince other teams that this is true (which I think it is) and get something of equivalent value back in a trade.

    I agree with the 600 HRs comments... it's a great milestone and in a perfect world, I'd like Junior to be a Red when he does it. But don't harm the franchise long-term in exchange for a week-long Junior love-fest.
    the only place I could see Jr going is back to Seattle, they obviously still love him there and I bet if we knew the truth he feels that leaving to come to Cincy was a mistake.
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  6. #65
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    I think JR would go anywhere on the east coast if it's a team that has a good shot at winning something.
    Go Gators!

  7. #66
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Serafini View Post
    A milestone isn't near as exciting when it's the third time in the past couple years someone hits it. 600 is impressive, no doubt, but the more people pass it the less magic it holds.
    Exactly my point. Anyone remember where they were when Sosa hit number 600?

    Not saying it isn't a great feat, but it just won't generate the fanfare to justify keeping Griffey here solely for that purpose. It won't generate enough money to justify his remaining contract and it won't generate any type of buzz to alter the future of the franchise (like McGwire did in St. Louis for example).

    Finally, JR hitting 600 as a Red is more a result of timing than the culmination of a series of hall of fame seasons in Cincy. The HOF seasons occurred in Seattle.

    Its a minor footnote in the scheme of things, not something to base franchise decisions upon.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  8. #67
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Exactly my point. Anyone remember where they were when Sosa hit number 600?

    Not saying it isn't a great feat, but it just won't generate the fanfare to justify keeping Griffey here solely for that purpose. It won't generate enough money to justify his remaining contract and it won't generate any type of buzz to alter the future of the franchise (like McGwire did in St. Louis for example).

    Finally, JR hitting 600 as a Red is more a result of timing than the culmination of a series of hall of fame seasons in Cincy. The HOF seasons occurred in Seattle.

    Its a minor footnote in the scheme of things, not something to base franchise decisions upon.
    You are mixing two issues. The magnitude of hitting 600 versus making stratigic franchise decisions around Jr hitting 600. I agree with you totally on the decision making aspects. There will likely be a spike in attendence (assuming he's close and they are in town) but I don't think it would be significant enough to justify turning down a good trade.

    However, I disagree that being one of only 6 guys in the entire history of baseball to reach the milestone has somehow become boring and passe. It certinally isn't a "minor footnote". What rubbish. I don't care if all 5 guys got in last week it's a big milestone and an increadibly exclusive club.

    And who cares that his best years were with Seattle? Those home runs in the Reds uni count too. Using that logic, any stat a player gets after they've peeked should be erased from their record. That makes no sense. Lot's of records are a result of a player finding a way to be effective even though they've lost a step or three. That makes them no less valid.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  9. #68
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Lets just note that if Griffey gets to 600 as a Red, he will be one of just 8 Reds EVER to hit 200 HR in a Reds uniform. Technically 598 will be his 200th as a Red.

  10. #69
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    You are mixing two issues. The magnitude of hitting 600 versus making stratigic franchise decisions around Jr hitting 600. I agree with you totally on the decision making aspects. There will likely be a spike in attendence (assuming he's close and they are in town) but I don't think it would be significant enough to justify turning down a good trade.

    However, I disagree that being one of only 6 guys in the entire history of baseball to reach the milestone has somehow become boring and passe. It certinally isn't a "minor footnote". What rubbish. I don't care if all 5 guys got in last week it's a big milestone and an increadibly exclusive club.

    And who cares that his best years were with Seattle? Those home runs in the Reds uni count too. Using that logic, any stat a player gets after they've peeked should be erased from their record. That makes no sense. Lot's of records are a result of a player finding a way to be effective even though they've lost a step or three. That makes them no less valid.

    My initial post was in response to some posts in this thread that claimed or implied that the Reds can't or won't trade Jr until after number 600 is hit as a red. I think we agree that is foolish but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't accurate.

    As for the best years in Seattle statement, let me elaborate. In this era most of the milestones that players achieve have become quite ordinary. Whether its steroid inflated totals, the fact we get to see so many milestones on TV, or better medicine leading to longer careers (I think a bit of all 3 among other things), these things simply aren't as special as they once were. One area where the appeal is greater IMO is when a player reaches a milestone as a culmination of a body of work that was largely achieved in the city where the milestone occurred. I'd argue that Biggio getting his 3000th hit as an Astro is more meaningful than Sosa or Griffey hitting their 600th in a place that wasn't where the glory occurred. I say that even though I think that 600 HR is a much greater achievement than 3000 hits. For Biggio and the Astro fans his 3000th hit is a cherry on top of a great career that the fans, his teammates and he can reflect back on. For Griffey, number 600 is more a consolation prize to soften the disappointment. When we see number 600 we'll be in awe that he hit so many and we'll look back fondly at Griffey's prime - on another team. Its just my opinion, but Biggio getting number 3000 while still an Astro is a cause for celebration and if the team would have cut ties with him when he was so close would have been a betrayal of the fans and the franchise that he was synonymous with. Griffey is not synonymous with Cincinnati. He is, was and always will be remembered as a Seattle Mariner. Trading him now when he is close to the goal is not anywhere close to the same thing as if he was a lifelong Red whose glory days were here. I just don't see the sense in portraying his milestone as some great celebration of Cincinnati baseball when Griffey's great baseball really didn't involve the Reds anyway.

    So for me, where the glory days occurred is very relevant. If Griffey's HOF caliber years were as a Red, I would be against trading him until after 600 is struck no matter what the deal. But Griffey is a Mariner HOF. His Red years are not really HOF caliber so there is nothing compelling to me about him hitting number 600 as a Red. I'd like to see him do it and will be happy for him, but there is no "Red's Pride" involved. He's a Mariner. If circumstances allow it to be done in a Red's uniform, I'll be cheering and as happy as anyone. But if a chance to move the franchise forward is passed upon for the sake of it (not that we would ever really know about it), then it would be a disservice to Red's fans.

    As for it being a minor footnote, I guess we disagree on the definition of major. Sosa's was a minor footnote. Number 700 for Bonds was a minor footnote. There were no celebrations. No nation was glued to the TV waiting for it. Maybe our definitions of major and minor are different. I think 30 seconds on sportcenter with a graphic saying Griffey hit number 600 is pretty minor. We won't remember the call like Aaron's 715th, McGwire's 62nd, Ripken's streak setting game or Rose's 4192. Those were events where the sports world stopped and watched. This won't be.
    Last edited by mth123; 09-07-2007 at 11:55 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  11. #70
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Griffey will have hit for more than 33% of his home runs as a Red if and when he hits #600. You make it sound like the Reds have had Griffey from like 550 until now, and at that point, I think you would have a point. However Griffey will have hit #400, #500 and soon to be #600 in a Cincinnati Reds uniform if they keep him. You may call that a minor footnote....I disagree.

  12. #71
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    As for it being a minor footnote, I guess we disagree on the definition of major. Sosa's was a minor footnote. Number 700 for Bonds was a minor footnote. There were no celebrations. No nation was glued to the TV waiting for it. Maybe our definitions of major and minor are different. I think 30 seconds on sportcenter with a graphic saying Griffey hit number 600 is pretty minor. We won't remember the call like Aaron's 715th, McGwire's 62nd, Ripken's streak setting game or Rose's 4192. Those were events where the sports world stopped and watched. This won't be.
    I guess if the amount of airtime a record gets on SportsCenter is the measuring stick of how important an event is you are right that it's minor.

    Frankly, that's about the silliest argument I've heard.

    6 people out of how many thousands who have played the game have done it (assuming Jr does in fact hit 600)? That's what it boils down to. How much it's discussed on PTI, or how many fans stop and write down where they were when it happens has aboultley nothing to do with guaging the importance of the record.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 09-08-2007 at 05:28 AM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  13. #72
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Griffey will have hit for more than 33% of his home runs as a Red if and when he hits #600. You make it sound like the Reds have had Griffey from like 550 until now, and at that point, I think you would have a point. However Griffey will have hit #400, #500 and soon to be #600 in a Cincinnati Reds uniform if they keep him. You may call that a minor footnote....I disagree.
    This entire discussion is about Jay Bruce and why he isn't here.
    The reason that Bruce isn't here is that there is nowhere to play. The Reds also have pitching issues which are exacerbated by a range deficient outfield. Griffey is 38 with some serious health limitations that are only going to get worse and, even with his good season in 2007, his future is mostly behind him. The premise was that he be traded to allow the minor league player of the year a spot to play which should improve the defense dramatically, create payroll room to allow a pitching acquisition and possibly add a prospect or two to boot.

    After that, an argument was raised by some one that Griffey can't, won't or shouldn't be traded until after his pursuit of number 600 is over. My point was and still is that being the 6th guy to hit his 600th homerun is a minor footnote in the scheme of things and certainly not worth altering franchise plans for and I stand by it.

    Anyone remember who the second guy to run a 4 minute mile was? How about the 3rd guy to clear 10 feet on the pole vault? Who was the 5th black player to cross the color barrier? Who was the second guy to throw a curve ball? These are all major accomplishments and fantastic feats in their own right. But none are opening new ground and as a result are minor footnotes in the scheme of things. From now on, a player hitting his 600th HR is in the same category. Bonds was the first guy in generations to do it, so it was somewhat noteworthy. Sosa was a complete afterthought. Griffey is close but, as the third guy this decade to do it, its old hat by now. That's a minor footnote in my book.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #73
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    I think JR would go anywhere on the east coast if it's a team that has a good shot at winning something.
    Which narrows the list down to who on the east coast?

    Boston, NY, Philly, Pittsburgh, Nationals, Braves, TB, and Marlins.

    You can pretty much cross money-conscious teams like the Pirates, TB, and Marlins, off that list.

    The Braves just signed their big money contract in Mark Teixeira. They hold no interest (if that interest ever existed) in acquiring Jr. Especially when they have a younger player, and better defensively, named Jones in CF. And I've read rumors they may try to trade him because of his contract. But they certainly aren't going to replace that contract with a Jr's because the Braves have become somewhat money-conscious too, and it really makes no sense.

    No way Nat's GM Bowden makes that mistake again. He'd rather acquire Dunn somehow.

    So that leaves Boston, Philly, and the two NY teams. And I just don't see it happening. The fans/media would have a field day with an aging, declining, injury-prone Jr in Philly and NY. It would be Jr's worst nightmare IMHO. And their need is like everyone elses - pitching.

    Jr is here through 2008.

    He seems to think he has a few years left and can contribute; but if he has any common sense (and humility) at all, he will take a reasonable contract that an AL team can afford (because he doesn't need the money), and become the next Edgar Martinez.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  15. #74
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    I guess if the amount of airtime a record gets on SportsCenter is the measuring stick of how important an event is you are right that it's minor.

    Frankly, that's about the silliest argument I've heard.

    6 people out of how many thousands who have played the game have done it (assuming Jr does in fact hit 600)? That's what it boils down to. How much it's discussed on PTI, or how many fans stop and write down where they were when it happens has aboultley nothing to do with guaging the importance of the record.
    Again, this discussion is about keeping Griffey around and delaying the time for the Jay Bruce era to begin so that the Reds can "cash in" on the fanfare that Griffey's pursuit of 600 will create. I think the amount of airplay on Sportscenter and the other media coverage and attention surrounding the event is a pretty good measuring stick of how much fanfare there is. The more the hype, the greater the windfall for the organization. I still don't see much hype surrounding it or any major windfall occurring. The organization should not be considering number 600 at all in terms of future roster decisions.

    I think you agree.
    Last edited by mth123; 09-08-2007 at 06:18 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  16. #75
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Why no Bruce??

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Which narrows the list down to who on the east coast?

    Boston, NY, Philly, Pittsburgh, Nationals, Braves, TB, and Marlins.

    You can pretty much cross money-conscious teams like the Pirates, TB, and Marlins, off that list.

    The Braves just signed their big money contract in Mark Teixeira. They hold no interest (if that interest ever existed) in acquiring Jr. Especially when they have a younger player, and better defensively, named Jones in CF. And I've read rumors they may try to trade him because of his contract. But they certainly aren't going to replace that contract with a Jr's because the Braves have become somewhat money-conscious too, and it really makes no sense.

    No way Nat's GM Bowden makes that mistake again. He'd rather acquire Dunn somehow.

    So that leaves Boston, Philly, and the two NY teams. And I just don't see it happening. The fans/media would have a field day with an aging, declining, injury-prone Jr in Philly and NY. It would be Jr's worst nightmare IMHO. And their need is like everyone elses - pitching.

    Jr is here through 2008.

    He seems to think he has a few years left and can contribute; but if he has any common sense (and humility) at all, he will take a reasonable contract that an AL team can afford (because he doesn't need the money), and become the next Edgar Martinez.
    Now this a legit argument as to why Griffey will still be here. I think the market is pretty limited too, but could see a scenario or two where something could happen (though I don't believe it likely). Possibly an exchange of bad contracts at an area of need. The Yankees will probably let Abreau walk. They'll have an opening in RF (assuming Johnny Damon doesn't take over there) and if A-Rod bolts George will be looking to make a big name splash. Mussina is aging and similarly paid while the Yankees have young pitching knocking at the door. I could see a Griffey for Mussina deal as a realistic possibility. Even a declining Mussina would be the 3rd best starter in Cincy and his first time around the easier NL advantage could make him a nice one year stop gap.

    Baltimore could use a big name to try and boost its sagging franchise and could be interested in Griffey for that purpose though I doubt he'd go.

    I agree that the Braves probably have no interest, but possibly if Andruw Jones walks the Reds could do something. They may want Griffey's power in LF to compensate for the loss of Jones while guys like Willie Harris and maybe Kelly Johnson (with Escobar taking over at 2B) roam CF. Atlanta has a strong RH bat in Diaz as a ready made partner/caddy. Atlanta would probably want the Reds to take a contract back and the Reds could actually gamble on some one like Mike Hampton ($15 Million in 2008 in the final year of his deal and coming back from TJ surgery) with Atlanta paying a portion and the Reds possibly getting a prospect or two as sweetener.

    Those are only examples of how the Reds would have to be creative to move Griffey. IMO a changing of the guard is needed to improve the defense and to open a spot for Bruce. Pitching in return would be an improvement as well.
    Last edited by mth123; 09-08-2007 at 07:06 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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